Flybe-What is Balpa for...??
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Suggest we put to the vote for a, 4 on 4 off shift.
Nil Further
the line training position was for a LGW based 146 driver and would have been with Astraeus based at LGW as part of the Astaeus secondment.
I know that none of Flybe's leased 737's were to be based there - but that was the deal.
BPM
the line training position was for a LGW based 146 driver and would have been with Astraeus based at LGW as part of the Astaeus secondment.
I know that none of Flybe's leased 737's were to be based there - but that was the deal.
BPM
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It is with interest that I have followed this thread as an 'outsider' to Flybe, but a few things strike me as rather odd.
Why do pilots who pay their 1% to BALPA keep making comments like
and I could go on.
It seems that many of your 60%(?) membership are not aware of how Balpa works within all airlines. You don't pay your money, sit back and wait for a result. Balpa is the organisation in the background, offering the support, assistance, guidance, legal backup etc to your Company Council. Your Company Council are who negotiates with your employer over terms and conditions. Have a (relatively) low membership and not a lot of interest in standing for election (I read only 1 person stood for election on this thread) and it is hardly surprising that their negotiation position is not the strongest to start with, let alone if things drag on and apathy has set in.
The only way you can get anything like what you say you want is to approach your employer with a united front, through a large collective membership of (whatever) body, be it Balpa or 'a n other', so when the negotiation starts to falter the reps have a mandate of your wishes, with a statement of what you are prepared to do to secure your wishes. This is what forces an employer to stay at the table to hammer out a deal, not 60% membership, most of whom haven't even told their reps what they want, certainly haven't stood up to the plate and told them what they are prepared to do collectively to get it and then bleat and say they are going to leave because of the 'toothless' performance of 'Balpa'!
Your employer must be laughing when they read such derision of Balpa. What you need to do is get an effective Company Council by at least supporting the one you have, getting some new blood in if required and giving them the mandate to negotiate on your behalf.
It never ceases to amaze me just how many pilots seem to think that they pay their 1% and therefore the great 'tiger' that (they perceive) is Balpa will get wheeled out on their behalf and when it proves to be toothless they start complaining and leaving in their droves.
With the pay and conditions as quoted on here it is not surprising your airline is viewed as a training airline by new joining pilots. They aspire to have a career on a decent wage to give them the lifestyle that they want. If they can find that elsewhere after a year or two at Flybe then they will move. As long as the training costs and supply of new joiners are cheaper than the alternative, the management will continue to do things the current way. Market forces may change this, but an increase in terms and conditions, negotiated through a strong CC representation and mandate could force them into action.
Now you probably think I am some kind of Balpa fan. Well, I am a member, in a charter airline with membership in the high 80%s which has an extremely effective Company Council that works in partnership with the airline management to facilitate mutual benefit. I am astounded at the team and what they have achieved over the last few years on my (and the other members) behalf. I have worked in other charter airlines who constantly aspire to our T's & C's and indeed where many of your colleagues have no doubt applied. The reason they are so successful? They are an extremely strong bunch of individuals, collectively even stronger, given a mandate by the members with over 80% representation. The company really HAVE to listen. Add this to the partnership approach achieving mutual benefit (usually through CC driven initiatives and ideas) and the company would be mad NOT to implement the changes! The sort of things I am talking about are day off working payments to pilots at an extremely attractive rate so plenty offer days back. This availability of pilots meant that the company sub-charter costs were slashed by something like Ģ9m in the first year and approximately Ģ3m was paid to the pilots in day off payments.
That is the way forward, not apathy and withdrawl of membership.
I wish you all well in Flybe.
PP
Why do pilots who pay their 1% to BALPA keep making comments like
I will never be a BALPA member again until I see some much stronger action from BALPA themselves
I joined Balpa a year or so ago and yeah i'm unhappy about the way they've gone about representing us
I too have seen no sign of Balpa fighting in our corner for pay parity
BALPA ar a disgrace
Why pay good money for a sub-standard union? If I pay money to someone I want something in return 24/7.
It seems that many of your 60%(?) membership are not aware of how Balpa works within all airlines. You don't pay your money, sit back and wait for a result. Balpa is the organisation in the background, offering the support, assistance, guidance, legal backup etc to your Company Council. Your Company Council are who negotiates with your employer over terms and conditions. Have a (relatively) low membership and not a lot of interest in standing for election (I read only 1 person stood for election on this thread) and it is hardly surprising that their negotiation position is not the strongest to start with, let alone if things drag on and apathy has set in.
The only way you can get anything like what you say you want is to approach your employer with a united front, through a large collective membership of (whatever) body, be it Balpa or 'a n other', so when the negotiation starts to falter the reps have a mandate of your wishes, with a statement of what you are prepared to do to secure your wishes. This is what forces an employer to stay at the table to hammer out a deal, not 60% membership, most of whom haven't even told their reps what they want, certainly haven't stood up to the plate and told them what they are prepared to do collectively to get it and then bleat and say they are going to leave because of the 'toothless' performance of 'Balpa'!
Your employer must be laughing when they read such derision of Balpa. What you need to do is get an effective Company Council by at least supporting the one you have, getting some new blood in if required and giving them the mandate to negotiate on your behalf.
It never ceases to amaze me just how many pilots seem to think that they pay their 1% and therefore the great 'tiger' that (they perceive) is Balpa will get wheeled out on their behalf and when it proves to be toothless they start complaining and leaving in their droves.
With the pay and conditions as quoted on here it is not surprising your airline is viewed as a training airline by new joining pilots. They aspire to have a career on a decent wage to give them the lifestyle that they want. If they can find that elsewhere after a year or two at Flybe then they will move. As long as the training costs and supply of new joiners are cheaper than the alternative, the management will continue to do things the current way. Market forces may change this, but an increase in terms and conditions, negotiated through a strong CC representation and mandate could force them into action.
Now you probably think I am some kind of Balpa fan. Well, I am a member, in a charter airline with membership in the high 80%s which has an extremely effective Company Council that works in partnership with the airline management to facilitate mutual benefit. I am astounded at the team and what they have achieved over the last few years on my (and the other members) behalf. I have worked in other charter airlines who constantly aspire to our T's & C's and indeed where many of your colleagues have no doubt applied. The reason they are so successful? They are an extremely strong bunch of individuals, collectively even stronger, given a mandate by the members with over 80% representation. The company really HAVE to listen. Add this to the partnership approach achieving mutual benefit (usually through CC driven initiatives and ideas) and the company would be mad NOT to implement the changes! The sort of things I am talking about are day off working payments to pilots at an extremely attractive rate so plenty offer days back. This availability of pilots meant that the company sub-charter costs were slashed by something like Ģ9m in the first year and approximately Ģ3m was paid to the pilots in day off payments.
That is the way forward, not apathy and withdrawl of membership.
I wish you all well in Flybe.
PP
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***************************************
I PAY HOMAGE TO THE GOD THAT IS PILOT PETE!
***************************************
Take heed comrades for we are in the presence of true greatness.
It is time.
Stand and be counted. Unleash the beast....!
Our CC's must be given support and backing to take the fight to the fat cats in EXT. We all have grievences, some real, some not so real. Let the council know then the fight can begin.
S'no joke. We're Europe's 3rd largest Low Cost carrier. Let's become Europe's 3rd largest earners.
I'm going on the piste.
Power to the people!
I PAY HOMAGE TO THE GOD THAT IS PILOT PETE!
***************************************
Take heed comrades for we are in the presence of true greatness.
It is time.
Stand and be counted. Unleash the beast....!
Our CC's must be given support and backing to take the fight to the fat cats in EXT. We all have grievences, some real, some not so real. Let the council know then the fight can begin.
S'no joke. We're Europe's 3rd largest Low Cost carrier. Let's become Europe's 3rd largest earners.
I'm going on the piste.
Power to the people!
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Like Pilot Pete I too am an outsider (and know little of the situation under discussion) but I certainly support what he has to say.
Every so often on prune we have an outbreak of anti-BALPA sentiment linked to some industrial situation which is not to the liking of the pilots in some airline or other. Instead of pulling together, or even better getting of their backsides and DOING SOMETHING there is instead an expression of horror that BALPA has not moved an amoured division in to help. There are no armoured divisions, nor are there fairy godmothers who come along and sort things out for you.
YOU have got to do something for yourselves, and by doing so you make your representatives strong. If you sit on your arses nothing ever gets done. Blame BALPA, global warming, the devil or whatever, but in the absence of collective will and action nobody can do much for you. Life is difficult.
Every so often on prune we have an outbreak of anti-BALPA sentiment linked to some industrial situation which is not to the liking of the pilots in some airline or other. Instead of pulling together, or even better getting of their backsides and DOING SOMETHING there is instead an expression of horror that BALPA has not moved an amoured division in to help. There are no armoured divisions, nor are there fairy godmothers who come along and sort things out for you.
YOU have got to do something for yourselves, and by doing so you make your representatives strong. If you sit on your arses nothing ever gets done. Blame BALPA, global warming, the devil or whatever, but in the absence of collective will and action nobody can do much for you. Life is difficult.
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Apologies seem to be in order. I'm a little confused by the letter i received from Balpa today. It seems to indicate that the 4.7% will bring us back to the levels of 2000. At the meeting i attended i was under the impression that we were getting back on level terms to 2005. I apolgise for misleading excrab and others....i don't know what to believe anymore.
Anyone got a definitive answer?
Whatever it is, it's not enough. It seems a disgrace that a jet captain with 15 years of loyalty will earn less than a new easyjet skipper. (Even with the proposed increment increases they will still be several thousand short).
I know that we are constantly linked to Citiexpress for our pay reviews but we don't do what Citiexpress does. We don't do what the rest of the 146 operators do. Surely we are now in the realms of Easy, Ryanair and Bmi baby. Also Citiexpress must look to Flybe's figures when it comes to the annual pay award as we are the biggest operator of 146's (or we were!). Doesn't this mean that when we go (for example) 2% that they go 2% and vice versa...surely something has gotta give?!!!!
CS and Pilot Pete are right....WE DO NEED TO SUPPORT OUR CC'S and tell them what we want. Its not too late! Especially as the company can't meet them until 15th of Feb.
Shanwick: What makes you think that the industry is depressed? I think that that's far from the truth with all the major airlines like Monarch, BA, Ryanair, Britannia and Easyjet recruiting or about to recruit due to expansion.....as is Flybe for that matter!!
80kts both -
-- 4.7% --- What can I say !
Yes the answer is to be united, I just don't think BALPA is the answer.
What would you think if you employed a tradesman to do some work on your house and he turned up and said " now, you mix the cement like this then you build the wall like this. Right I'm off now but if you need any more advise - just call"
Would you still pay him in the hope things improve ?
Don't put words into my mouth, I did NOT say 'bought off' I said influenced - they are 2 completely separate things. I would never accuse the CC of being 'bought off' - indeed I believe they are trying their best for us but I also believe the system is floored and they should get much more help from BALPA than they actually get.
What was meant by 'influence' is 'being steered in the direction the management want' This is the floor in the system, we should not be electing a group of people that are employed by the company and expect them to play hard ball on our behalf.
a) They don't get paid for all their hard work,
b) They face possible retribution from the company - we all know this happens - we just choose to ignore it.
Nil Further - The story of the 737 offer is True - As you say, you don't work for FlyBe anymore so I suggest you talk to someone in FlyBe before you write stuff like -
'as far as i know flybe don't operate the B737 at the mo'
as the 737 course starts in 2 weeks.
80kts both -
-- 4.7% --- What can I say !
Yes the answer is to be united, I just don't think BALPA is the answer.
What would you think if you employed a tradesman to do some work on your house and he turned up and said " now, you mix the cement like this then you build the wall like this. Right I'm off now but if you need any more advise - just call"
Would you still pay him in the hope things improve ?
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PJ2
But unlike tradesmen we don't pay our cc's. You just said that in the same post. If we have a problem with Balpa then we have to tell Balpa they ain't psychic!
Oh and i didn't want a wall....i wanted a gold leaf bathroom with marble floors and a bidet.....and a naked hot chick.....preferably not sitting on the bidet ...that's a bit of a turn off!!
But unlike tradesmen we don't pay our cc's. You just said that in the same post. If we have a problem with Balpa then we have to tell Balpa they ain't psychic!
Oh and i didn't want a wall....i wanted a gold leaf bathroom with marble floors and a bidet.....and a naked hot chick.....preferably not sitting on the bidet ...that's a bit of a turn off!!
Last edited by 80ktsboth; 30th Jan 2005 at 14:53.
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Pilot Pete writes complete sense. I urge fellow pilots to consider it.
PJ2 - 'influenceed' still sounds to me that you don't consider that the CC will or want to fight your corner. Nothing is further from the truth. Who do you think can do it better, the IPA or some other union? Who knows the company better and the personalities involved, the CC or BALPA?
80ktsboth - I understand that 4.7% would bring the jet scale back to the FY2000 level in real terms and will be greater (just)than what Citiexpress has settled for wef 1 Apr 05.
And at the end there will be a ballot for members to say if they want to accept it or not. It can always be rejected at that point. Non members don't get to vote so if you want a say join
PJ2 - 'influenceed' still sounds to me that you don't consider that the CC will or want to fight your corner. Nothing is further from the truth. Who do you think can do it better, the IPA or some other union? Who knows the company better and the personalities involved, the CC or BALPA?
80ktsboth - I understand that 4.7% would bring the jet scale back to the FY2000 level in real terms and will be greater (just)than what Citiexpress has settled for wef 1 Apr 05.
And at the end there will be a ballot for members to say if they want to accept it or not. It can always be rejected at that point. Non members don't get to vote so if you want a say join
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Whispermode,
Considering what is going on at the moment RE: 'Contract' pilots on the 146 and the fact that it was done with what seems like no referral with BALPA - for the sake of my colleges,
I sincerely hope the CC prove me wrong.
Considering what is going on at the moment RE: 'Contract' pilots on the 146 and the fact that it was done with what seems like no referral with BALPA - for the sake of my colleges,
I sincerely hope the CC prove me wrong.
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Having read all our comments on this topic,perhaps we should now stand back,take a deep breath and think.
I am NOT on the company CC but do have these observations.
The pay claim is totally inadequate now because the airline is totally different to the one of the year 2000.Our modus operendi has changed dramatically and so should our remuneration.
However the way to achieve this is not by bickering or absolutely not by leaving BALPA.They may not be perfect but when you think it out rationally without them who will negotiate salaries,term and conditions,scheduling agreements etc.
I am sure our Ops Director reads these pages and must be wringing his hands with glee at the disharmony - divide and conquer!
BALPA is without doubt an instrument that works hard for the worlds favourite airline(!!!!)however do consider the strength of membership in BA.
If we all vote with our feet and leave BALPA and the numbers dwindle we will no longer have company recognition and then where will we be?
I am not enthralled by BALPA's contribution but I do wonder if our CC get enough support from BALPA HQ.
We were always going to lose some pilots who want to fly bigger things it is the loss of the others that we need to concern ourselves with,those that are leaving because they see it as the only way to get paid what their hard work gaining a licence deserves and to be treated fairly.
We do have a life outside the job give us chance to live it!
Here endeth the first lesson
I am NOT on the company CC but do have these observations.
The pay claim is totally inadequate now because the airline is totally different to the one of the year 2000.Our modus operendi has changed dramatically and so should our remuneration.
However the way to achieve this is not by bickering or absolutely not by leaving BALPA.They may not be perfect but when you think it out rationally without them who will negotiate salaries,term and conditions,scheduling agreements etc.
I am sure our Ops Director reads these pages and must be wringing his hands with glee at the disharmony - divide and conquer!
BALPA is without doubt an instrument that works hard for the worlds favourite airline(!!!!)however do consider the strength of membership in BA.
If we all vote with our feet and leave BALPA and the numbers dwindle we will no longer have company recognition and then where will we be?
I am not enthralled by BALPA's contribution but I do wonder if our CC get enough support from BALPA HQ.
We were always going to lose some pilots who want to fly bigger things it is the loss of the others that we need to concern ourselves with,those that are leaving because they see it as the only way to get paid what their hard work gaining a licence deserves and to be treated fairly.
We do have a life outside the job give us chance to live it!
Here endeth the first lesson
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Where's your self respect boys
Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights
I am yet to come across anyone on line that feels the package is right.
The current 4.7% went in before the FAT CATS announced massive capitalist post tax profits.
There's nothing to stop us throwing it back in their faces and asking for what we're entitled to.
We must stand together in our rightful place. Vallhalla and beyond........!
Don't get mad, Get even....!
POWER TO THE PEOPLE
Take care comrades
Wolfie xxxxxxx
Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights
I am yet to come across anyone on line that feels the package is right.
The current 4.7% went in before the FAT CATS announced massive capitalist post tax profits.
There's nothing to stop us throwing it back in their faces and asking for what we're entitled to.
We must stand together in our rightful place. Vallhalla and beyond........!
Don't get mad, Get even....!
POWER TO THE PEOPLE
Take care comrades
Wolfie xxxxxxx
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The 146 is a much less technical aircraft than the Q400.So even though 146 is a jet why pay more?Shouldnt everyone be paid the same and then there would be no problem changing between types as and when reqd to meet operational requirements.Just because the company has overcommitted,doesn't give them the right to wreck your homelife.In this day and age goodwill costs the going rate.
Balpa will only ever be as good as we the members make it ,if you cant stand together then what do you expect of them
Balpa will only ever be as good as we the members make it ,if you cant stand together then what do you expect of them
146 a much less technical a/c than the Q400.........
I don't think we should go down this road.
Does that mean on the 146 we don't work as hard? Or do we not need to be as technically qualified?
I hope BA factored the pay of long haul DC10 pilots against that of the B777 coz it's not as technical an a/c.
I also hope they didn't pay the 'classic' 747 pilots as much as those flying the 747-400 coz it's a much less technical a/c.
Stupid argument. Stop it now.
I don't think we should go down this road.
Does that mean on the 146 we don't work as hard? Or do we not need to be as technically qualified?
I hope BA factored the pay of long haul DC10 pilots against that of the B777 coz it's not as technical an a/c.
I also hope they didn't pay the 'classic' 747 pilots as much as those flying the 747-400 coz it's a much less technical a/c.
Stupid argument. Stop it now.
