A few facts about Cathay Freighters
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A few facts about Cathay Freighters
This flies out to all those who are interested in taking up a job with CX freighters. First I would like to emphasize that Cathay Pacific is an english managed company! This is important to know if your mother tongue is not english or if you have not grown up in a commonwealth state or in a former british colony. There is a lot of adaptation required. People from commonwealth states may have fewer difficulties to adapt to the system, but the following applies irrespective of that.
1. The working atmosphere for First Officers is authoritarian, humiliating and intimidating. They are completely left out of any decision making process, e.g. when it comes to technical problems.
2. Checking, Reporting and Grading Philosophy. Whoever writes the first report, wins. Grading is widely used to apply pressure instead of motivating people.
3. Fear culture. The message is: behave like we want you to or you will loose your job. One wrong word to the wrong person or a marginal check flight and there’s a ‘final warning’. Everybody keeps their mouths shut. There is no CRM.
4. Total control and analysis on all flights (QAR).
5. There is no training in Cathay Freighters. The training system is totally abused as a testing system. This creates high stress levels and increases the overall number of mistakes an individual makes.
6. Rostering surprises. You arrive in Hong Kong in the early morning, trying to keep your home sleeping pattern when you learn that you are rostered for a sim ride the next early morning, against your body clock. It is designated as a ‘crew up’ but your performance is evaluated as in a check ride.
7. For line checks they like to send you to places you normally don’t fly to.
8. You have to be a very experienced professional to get the job. Once you’re in you are treated as a schoolboy and with disrespect. This is a Captain oriented airline.
These few points represent the essence of my own experience on the classic freighter fleet (B 747-200). From the bottom of my heart I advise: don’t join Cathay Freighters! The money may be good, the basings are an advantage but you will not be happy.
1. The working atmosphere for First Officers is authoritarian, humiliating and intimidating. They are completely left out of any decision making process, e.g. when it comes to technical problems.
2. Checking, Reporting and Grading Philosophy. Whoever writes the first report, wins. Grading is widely used to apply pressure instead of motivating people.
3. Fear culture. The message is: behave like we want you to or you will loose your job. One wrong word to the wrong person or a marginal check flight and there’s a ‘final warning’. Everybody keeps their mouths shut. There is no CRM.
4. Total control and analysis on all flights (QAR).
5. There is no training in Cathay Freighters. The training system is totally abused as a testing system. This creates high stress levels and increases the overall number of mistakes an individual makes.
6. Rostering surprises. You arrive in Hong Kong in the early morning, trying to keep your home sleeping pattern when you learn that you are rostered for a sim ride the next early morning, against your body clock. It is designated as a ‘crew up’ but your performance is evaluated as in a check ride.
7. For line checks they like to send you to places you normally don’t fly to.
8. You have to be a very experienced professional to get the job. Once you’re in you are treated as a schoolboy and with disrespect. This is a Captain oriented airline.
These few points represent the essence of my own experience on the classic freighter fleet (B 747-200). From the bottom of my heart I advise: don’t join Cathay Freighters! The money may be good, the basings are an advantage but you will not be happy.
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Come on and tell that is not true-Hope not!
That was a bit of a suprise if thats true. Always though that CX Freigh side would be a top notch place to work for. Anyone else in the know care to comment
HS
HS
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I respect everyone's opinion, but you cant say "Dont come and fly here, because i think you will not like it" thats the impression i got from the original post.
You should give it a go, if you like it you can stay, if you don't , then you can leave.
You should give it a go, if you like it you can stay, if you don't , then you can leave.
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I think the guy posted a very delicate issue regarding flight safety habits at CX. Everything that has to do with flight crew checks and CRM it is very important to improve the safety records of an airline. I don't know if what he said is true or not, but I would like to know someone else opinion, any malpractice as the above mentioned must be fighted 'til it stop.
Any other comments are appr. THX
azdriver
Any other comments are appr. THX
azdriver
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Cathay Pacific Cargo is the best job I have ever had. The Company pay a good package and unlike other airlines is financially secure.
There is a high level of "bull" and there is no such word as training, but constant checking of which there are no standards between checkers, but at the end of the day, it must be one of the best jobs around and where one can still make good money.
They will not suffer fools or incompetence and however much money has been spent on you, perform well or you're out!
If you are lucky enough to get through the interview bull, go for it!
It seems to me in this life of flying, if you have a fun job you get paid little!
There is a high level of "bull" and there is no such word as training, but constant checking of which there are no standards between checkers, but at the end of the day, it must be one of the best jobs around and where one can still make good money.
They will not suffer fools or incompetence and however much money has been spent on you, perform well or you're out!
If you are lucky enough to get through the interview bull, go for it!
It seems to me in this life of flying, if you have a fun job you get paid little!
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Ou come on
Obviously where there is smoke there is fire. I do believe there is some truth to this first thread
And the question is why do some people-you know who you are- behave like that. That is 
by all means. I though this sort of behaviour is one of the things we do not want to have in our workplace- 
And the question is why do some people-you know who you are- behave like that. That is by all means. I though this sort of behaviour is one of the things we do not want to have in our workplace-
Last edited by Holding Short; 19th Dec 2004 at 14:00.
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Thought I wasn’t going to comment on my bad time there, but the first post is too accurate on most points to ignore, all I can say is that it matches personal experience with the company.
The unbelievable arrogance, the undisguised threats, the whole tone and atmosphere in my one year interview was something I have never experienced before in my life, and hopefully never will again, I was totally put off and quite angry afterwards. I suppose my response was not as required and in retrospect it is little wonder I was told to leave after 1,5 years. It did come as a shock however, because I passed my checks and got on extremely well with the guys on the line.
The flipside of the coin is that I had some family problems and a considerable amount of stress and distraction which failed me a sim a few months prior to my dismissal. Later discovered that every sim is a check there, and that it doesn’t matter a hoot if you nailed the regulatory ones. I agree that there is little or no training and no-one to develop or help you out if you run into problems, be that personal or professional.
What Baywatcher said may be right to a certain degree and who wouldn’t be inclined to agree as long as on the sunny side of things, however, what use is a financially secure airline where you are paid half a decent salary when they mistreat and intimidate their staff. What happens when things DO go pearshaped, when, for whatever reason, the focus is laid on you and you get “checked out”. I have seen more than a few sad cases in my time there but found little or no account of this on this forum, understandably most would keep quiet about this in order to move on unnoticed and avoid suspicion that you are either “a fool or incompetent”, very interesting.
Hong Kong has no labour protection, you are out of the door anytime with no reason required, I guess this legal background is the underlying foundation of company policy and attitude.
The unbelievable arrogance, the undisguised threats, the whole tone and atmosphere in my one year interview was something I have never experienced before in my life, and hopefully never will again, I was totally put off and quite angry afterwards. I suppose my response was not as required and in retrospect it is little wonder I was told to leave after 1,5 years. It did come as a shock however, because I passed my checks and got on extremely well with the guys on the line.
The flipside of the coin is that I had some family problems and a considerable amount of stress and distraction which failed me a sim a few months prior to my dismissal. Later discovered that every sim is a check there, and that it doesn’t matter a hoot if you nailed the regulatory ones. I agree that there is little or no training and no-one to develop or help you out if you run into problems, be that personal or professional.
What Baywatcher said may be right to a certain degree and who wouldn’t be inclined to agree as long as on the sunny side of things, however, what use is a financially secure airline where you are paid half a decent salary when they mistreat and intimidate their staff. What happens when things DO go pearshaped, when, for whatever reason, the focus is laid on you and you get “checked out”. I have seen more than a few sad cases in my time there but found little or no account of this on this forum, understandably most would keep quiet about this in order to move on unnoticed and avoid suspicion that you are either “a fool or incompetent”, very interesting.
Hong Kong has no labour protection, you are out of the door anytime with no reason required, I guess this legal background is the underlying foundation of company policy and attitude.
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Any ideas what is causing this?
There seem to be no problems at the mainline.
N_D
First I would like to emphasize that Cathay Pacific is an english managed company! This is important to know if your mother tongue is not english or if you have not grown up in a commonwealth state or in a former british colony. There is a lot of adaptation required. People from commonwealth states may have fewer difficulties to adapt to the system, but the following applies irrespective of that.
N_D
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.........no problems at all on mainline...have a mate on the fr8ter fleet.........reckons it's OK.......sorry to hear about your plight, give it some time, it may get better. good luck.
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I was mainline… and dont think there is a big difference in company culture within the the respective departments. I was however told that the Airbus fleet is more progressive due to the fact that there are a lot more younger Australian managers running the show.
I would certainly not advise against joining, in the end that is everyones personal decision. It undisputedly is a very fine company in many respects and it deserves all decent and responsible wannabes to go and make their input for a better future, I would take GDOPs post as a warning that for the time being, and in Hong Kong generally, you are a soldier of fortune.
I would certainly not advise against joining, in the end that is everyones personal decision. It undisputedly is a very fine company in many respects and it deserves all decent and responsible wannabes to go and make their input for a better future, I would take GDOPs post as a warning that for the time being, and in Hong Kong generally, you are a soldier of fortune.
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I heard first hand from different guys independent from each other that the claims are true ,it is a culture of fear and disrespect at least on the 200.
Also very important to consider:
the extreme high failure rate ( 6 out of 10 first shot) on upgrading courses on the 200. two failures and you end up as a PFO
( Professional First Officer
,)
so that leaves the following question:
If CX has these infamous tough requirements on new joiners,with very experienced guys among them,who is to blame for these failures well above industry level??
I always hear the money is so exeptionally good at CX. Actually this is definetely not true on the freighter fleet,the pay is average at the most ,you would earn more at every european major including freight airlines( wide body).Plus: you may never be able to get a cpt salary...
Strangely there are still guys around who defend this inhuman and silly system,very hard to understand as I see it..
Also very important to consider:
the extreme high failure rate ( 6 out of 10 first shot) on upgrading courses on the 200. two failures and you end up as a PFO
( Professional First Officer
,)so that leaves the following question:
If CX has these infamous tough requirements on new joiners,with very experienced guys among them,who is to blame for these failures well above industry level??
I always hear the money is so exeptionally good at CX. Actually this is definetely not true on the freighter fleet,the pay is average at the most ,you would earn more at every european major including freight airlines( wide body).Plus: you may never be able to get a cpt salary...
Strangely there are still guys around who defend this inhuman and silly system,very hard to understand as I see it..
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Let me say this. I have been with Cathay for quite sometime now. I believe he is pretty, spot on with the coments ,at what goes on here at Cathay. he also failed to mention that the command failure rates are unheard of here in our industry. There is a very real possibility you may never make command.... better pilots than I have not made it or even have been sacked. For "training problems".
Is it a place you 'should not work here" ? NO! I say that because you will have to make that decision. I am glad even still..that I decided to accept the opportunity. Do I like many things that happen in this ailine?... It definately gives you a feeling of no job security. And it can be very taxing on your patience. No I do not.
On the positive side, The money is Great after your 3rd year going into the PAX fleet. And not too bad before that, during your first three years on the frieghter. Health benifits are pretty good. loss of licence insurance pretty good. depending on base and aircrfaft the rosters can be good.
Job security, you may ask?..Hmmm now that would be a good one. from a standpoint of redundancies..Great. From being in the wrong place at the wrong time..Hmmm not so good..ie training , saying the wrong thing at the wrong time..etc. HOWEVER, we work in the airline bussiness in the 21st century. Show me someone in an airline today who feels secure with his or her job, with pay cuts, pension benifts dwindling or non-existent and record redundancies and recieverships and I will show you a pilot that spoted Santa Clause on Christmas Eve at FL350. You get my drift.
Those worries do make for a secure enviroment either and can be mentally taxing as well. So you have to choose your poison.
You have to ask the question, which course do I choose, I do remeber during the SAR's crisis when most of our pax aircraft were parked..not one single redundancy.. yes we intially took a paycut but it was returned.
If you can be very self motivated, learn to keep your head low and watch the bullets fly overhead..you should be pretty safe here at Cathay..I say should.. I liken this to the military in some ways..and I really feel it has no place here in this day in age but, they try to break you and see how you react. And it is not a one time thing, it will go on for a while. Maybe years.. On the line as in normal line flying it is actually fun. You just have to have your skin a little thicker than most and learn to say, "Oh I See..OIC"
But it is not an airline for everyone. Anyone interested will have to search his or her heart and know themselves and make a choice... I did and so far I do not regret it.
Is it a place you 'should not work here" ? NO! I say that because you will have to make that decision. I am glad even still..that I decided to accept the opportunity. Do I like many things that happen in this ailine?... It definately gives you a feeling of no job security. And it can be very taxing on your patience. No I do not.
On the positive side, The money is Great after your 3rd year going into the PAX fleet. And not too bad before that, during your first three years on the frieghter. Health benifits are pretty good. loss of licence insurance pretty good. depending on base and aircrfaft the rosters can be good.
Job security, you may ask?..Hmmm now that would be a good one. from a standpoint of redundancies..Great. From being in the wrong place at the wrong time..Hmmm not so good..ie training , saying the wrong thing at the wrong time..etc. HOWEVER, we work in the airline bussiness in the 21st century. Show me someone in an airline today who feels secure with his or her job, with pay cuts, pension benifts dwindling or non-existent and record redundancies and recieverships and I will show you a pilot that spoted Santa Clause on Christmas Eve at FL350. You get my drift.
Those worries do make for a secure enviroment either and can be mentally taxing as well. So you have to choose your poison.
You have to ask the question, which course do I choose, I do remeber during the SAR's crisis when most of our pax aircraft were parked..not one single redundancy.. yes we intially took a paycut but it was returned.
If you can be very self motivated, learn to keep your head low and watch the bullets fly overhead..you should be pretty safe here at Cathay..I say should.. I liken this to the military in some ways..and I really feel it has no place here in this day in age but, they try to break you and see how you react. And it is not a one time thing, it will go on for a while. Maybe years.. On the line as in normal line flying it is actually fun. You just have to have your skin a little thicker than most and learn to say, "Oh I See..OIC"
But it is not an airline for everyone. Anyone interested will have to search his or her heart and know themselves and make a choice... I did and so far I do not regret it.
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Cathay experience
I would agree with everything written by GDOP. I had no intention of posting on this forum until I read the experiences of many people within CX but it is time to speak.
Firstly, for any Cathay legal types out there, these are my views and as a British subject Reserve the right to free speech. This is not China!!
Cathay Pacific operate under a culture of fear. You put up and shut up and if you question you are out, its that simple. The company runs these policies from the top down in order to save money. The company is 25% owned by CITIC, the commercial arm of the Chinese government. In case you are not aware China are not exactly world leaders in human rights. A worker can still be imprisoned for being a member of a trade union. These influences and the poor employment rights in Hong Kong give Cathay the environment they need to operate without a second thought for the rights of the employee.
I have seen people sacked for raising serious safety concerns about aircraft, another bullied to a nervous breakdown. A young woman sexually harrassed then put on garden leave and her pay stopped in an effort to make her resign in order to protect the people harrassing her. Many people raising grievances and not once the company found anything wrong. Yes you will be O.K as long as you can see this abuse of rights and turn a blind eye.
Ask yourselves this - why do Cathay Pacific have so many incidents? bad luck, I don't think so. People are afraid to say or do the right thing because they will be next.
Oh and if anyone is in the U.K and would like the proof of this the man sacked will be at the Watford employment tribunal on 17-21 January 2005 where he will be providing around 600 pages of evidence to prove this, I know because I have seen it, journo's more than welcome.
Oh and he will not be taking a £10,000 payoff with a comprehensive gagging order either (Cathays usual defence).
Those who work for Cathay please ask yourselves, how many people must tell the same story before you believe it?
Firstly, for any Cathay legal types out there, these are my views and as a British subject Reserve the right to free speech. This is not China!!
Cathay Pacific operate under a culture of fear. You put up and shut up and if you question you are out, its that simple. The company runs these policies from the top down in order to save money. The company is 25% owned by CITIC, the commercial arm of the Chinese government. In case you are not aware China are not exactly world leaders in human rights. A worker can still be imprisoned for being a member of a trade union. These influences and the poor employment rights in Hong Kong give Cathay the environment they need to operate without a second thought for the rights of the employee.
I have seen people sacked for raising serious safety concerns about aircraft, another bullied to a nervous breakdown. A young woman sexually harrassed then put on garden leave and her pay stopped in an effort to make her resign in order to protect the people harrassing her. Many people raising grievances and not once the company found anything wrong. Yes you will be O.K as long as you can see this abuse of rights and turn a blind eye.
Ask yourselves this - why do Cathay Pacific have so many incidents? bad luck, I don't think so. People are afraid to say or do the right thing because they will be next.
Oh and if anyone is in the U.K and would like the proof of this the man sacked will be at the Watford employment tribunal on 17-21 January 2005 where he will be providing around 600 pages of evidence to prove this, I know because I have seen it, journo's more than welcome.
Oh and he will not be taking a £10,000 payoff with a comprehensive gagging order either (Cathays usual defence).
Those who work for Cathay please ask yourselves, how many people must tell the same story before you believe it?
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Hmm, have to say that all this smoke ain't good...fire must surely follow.
This reminds me of the 'training' culture at a few US aircarriers about twenty five years ago.
All of a sudden, they had a look at their training budgets and said...good gosh, its gone off the clock.
An adversarial atmosphere does not pay in the long run...including safety-wise.
This reminds me of the 'training' culture at a few US aircarriers about twenty five years ago.
All of a sudden, they had a look at their training budgets and said...good gosh, its gone off the clock.
An adversarial atmosphere does not pay in the long run...including safety-wise.
I'd concur with a great deal of the foregoing comment.
I know a number of excellent, experienced captains who were left by the CX training system doubting their own ability to do the job they'd been executing successfully for many years.
That is not to say that CX is not a great company with excellent facilities at CLK.
I know a number of excellent, experienced captains who were left by the CX training system doubting their own ability to do the job they'd been executing successfully for many years.
That is not to say that CX is not a great company with excellent facilities at CLK.
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Am I missing something here? do people out there really think that a company can be "great" just because it has built a flash new HQ to go with its corporate image? and that all the disgracefull abuses of staff do not matter?
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colts19, completely agree - you cannot mortgage safety. It will be very sad when it does happen as I have no doubt it will. But surely if enough people speak instead of "watching the bullets fly" it could turn into a truly good place to work without the fear. I think the only other thing that would make the CX management listen is a loss of revenue when the shoddy treatment of many staff and the safety issues are outed. There are a lot of excellent proffessional people at CX but I feel they will sit back as long as it is not them next !!