Swimming In The BA Pool?
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These are the actual figures for retirements between 2004 & 2015
After 2015 the figures assume an average of 100 retirements a year
Read em and weep
16 years SH command
22 years LH command
Because they DONT include the retirement ago going from 55 to 65ish in 2006...
Add another 5 years onto these to make them realistic, then pull up your seat and make yourself comfortable as there wont be any mainline expansion at LHR LGW.
(you would join at about 3100 on the list presently)
Year Retirees Sen # Yrs
2004 162 3100 1
2005 122 2978 2
2006 151 2827 3
2007 115 2712 4
2008 78 2634 5
2009 89 2545 6
2010 99 2446 7
2011 120 2326 8
2012 114 2212 9
2013 79 2133 10
2014 118 2015 11
2015 105 1910 12
2016 100 1810 13
2017 100 1710 14
2018 100 1610 15
2019 100 1510 16 SHORTHAUL COMMAND LEVEL
2020 100 1410 17
2021 100 1310 18
2022 100 1210 19
2023 100 1110 20
2024 100 1010 21
2025 100 910 22 LONGHAUL COMMAND LEVEL
After 2015 the figures assume an average of 100 retirements a year
Read em and weep
16 years SH command
22 years LH command
Because they DONT include the retirement ago going from 55 to 65ish in 2006...
Add another 5 years onto these to make them realistic, then pull up your seat and make yourself comfortable as there wont be any mainline expansion at LHR LGW.
(you would join at about 3100 on the list presently)
Year Retirees Sen # Yrs
2004 162 3100 1
2005 122 2978 2
2006 151 2827 3
2007 115 2712 4
2008 78 2634 5
2009 89 2545 6
2010 99 2446 7
2011 120 2326 8
2012 114 2212 9
2013 79 2133 10
2014 118 2015 11
2015 105 1910 12
2016 100 1810 13
2017 100 1710 14
2018 100 1610 15
2019 100 1510 16 SHORTHAUL COMMAND LEVEL
2020 100 1410 17
2021 100 1310 18
2022 100 1210 19
2023 100 1110 20
2024 100 1010 21
2025 100 910 22 LONGHAUL COMMAND LEVEL
Last edited by Big Kahuna Burger; 5th Nov 2004 at 14:48.
Thread Starter
Nigelondraft,
Agree with most of what you say, BA has good terms and conditions and start date is important, but the Holy Grail was the pension scheme which is no more. New joiners no longer have the golden hand cuffs to keep them at BA if they get messed about.
As for changing aircraft types and bases after a contract has been signed in good faith, I would view this as very ungentlemanly!
Agree with most of what you say, BA has good terms and conditions and start date is important, but the Holy Grail was the pension scheme which is no more. New joiners no longer have the golden hand cuffs to keep them at BA if they get messed about.
As for changing aircraft types and bases after a contract has been signed in good faith, I would view this as very ungentlemanly!
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Absolutely right.
No pension = No golden handcuffs
So, come to BA, get yourself a useful type rating, then, after a few months, go somewhere with MUCH better prospects!
Do it quickly though because, with the current rate of disillusionment at BA, it won't be long before the company are forced to start bonding new joiners.
Incidentally, I agree entirely with BKB, but suspect 16 years to a shorthaul command, is almost certainly, much too optimistic!
No pension = No golden handcuffs
So, come to BA, get yourself a useful type rating, then, after a few months, go somewhere with MUCH better prospects!
Do it quickly though because, with the current rate of disillusionment at BA, it won't be long before the company are forced to start bonding new joiners.
Incidentally, I agree entirely with BKB, but suspect 16 years to a shorthaul command, is almost certainly, much too optimistic!
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Airbrake you said
But that is exactly what happened to the last lot of DEP's. They even had 747 or 777 written on their contract of employment.................but BA can (and does) do what it likes in the first 5 years. Some of these guys intended to commute from abroad and were not too chuffed. An offer of employment on the LH fleets does not mean you will be flying on those fleets. You have been warned!
(Personally I prefer SH but there you go everyone is different)
The retirement rates after 2014 are going to be much lower than 100 a year. I like Tandemrotor suspect that SH commands are going to be a lot longer than 16 years...........but then I also think that an awful lot will have changed by then so it wouldn't put me off too much. Just take the fleet that is going to get you started the earliest............it makes such a difference for the rest of your careers.
As for changing aircraft types and bases after a contract has been signed in good faith, I would view this as very ungentlemanly!
(Personally I prefer SH but there you go everyone is different)
The retirement rates after 2014 are going to be much lower than 100 a year. I like Tandemrotor suspect that SH commands are going to be a lot longer than 16 years...........but then I also think that an awful lot will have changed by then so it wouldn't put me off too much. Just take the fleet that is going to get you started the earliest............it makes such a difference for the rest of your careers.
(kidding)
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NigelonDraft,
When you say extensively, how many pilots have been affected by this re-shuffing tactic?
Justbelowcap,
Can you confirm when this type of dirty tricks campaign last happened and in what context? I thought this happened over 4 years ago, although if true, would support the hypothesis that it might happen again...
Thanks for the heads-up.
To those who have accepted LH LHR, I trust you do understand that at any time from now, until DoJ + 5 years, you can be posted, at BA's whim, to any fleet / base they wish (and BA have exercised this quite extensively and recently). And of course that includes during your first weeks in the company when they say - no, go sit in the 737 cockpit mockup, not the 777 - hope you like LGW...
Justbelowcap,
But that is exactly what happened to the last lot of DEP's. They even had 747 or 777 written on their contract of employment.................but BA can (and does) do what it likes in the first 5 years. Some of these guys intended to commute from abroad and were not too chuffed. An offer of employment on the LH fleets does not mean you will be flying on those fleets. You have been warned!
(Personally I prefer SH but there you go everyone is different)
(Personally I prefer SH but there you go everyone is different)
Thanks for the heads-up.
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I thought this happened over 4 years ago, although if true, would support the hypothesis that it might happen again...
Post 9/11 BA, to their credit, honoured all contract offers, even if unsigned, since people had handed in resignations to other airlines, who post 9/11 were very glad to see volunteers "go". BA gave some menial jobs, farmed some out to CitiExpress etc., but basically honoured them.
Some of these people had 777/744 on their contracts. They are still flying Airbus'. Some are bitter, some not...
As for "how extensively" I do not know... We have had new guys shunted to and from the 757/767 and Airbus against their will, or posted to the regions (MAN, BHX) and as soon as they have signed for a house up there, shunted back to LHR.
It is not ungentlemanly - it is in the contract / T&Cs. As a wild guess, anyone offered a 777 course for say Feb, is, say, 75% likely to start on the 777. All I am saying is keep your eyes open, and what really matters, if BA is for you, is your start date. Delaying for even a few weeks to get the fleet you want could cost you hundreds of £K and leave and command etc. over the coming decades...
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I know someone who has turned down a shorthaul offer as they live in the North and needed LH to make commuting easier.
As you say no "golden Handcuffs" and BA is now just a job the same as most other airlines........
As you say no "golden Handcuffs" and BA is now just a job the same as most other airlines........
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It has happened many times down the years although the last lot were the first (as far as I know) to have an actual type mentioned on their contract. For the BA internal bidding those guys are not type frozen because they were directed onto a new fleet, albeit on day one, so are free to bid for LH BUT are still at BA's mercy till they have done 5 years. Subtle difference that may see them released before others that are still under a 4 year type freeze.
In the past pilots have been sitting in the 757 sim about to do their final check to be told "it's all changed chaps you are now 737."
Very important that people realise that for 5 years you can be put where you are needed and that you are not part of the Postings process, although you will get a bid. However once out of your 5 year freeze then your posting bid takes prority over any external applicant. BA can't deny a 747 place to an internal bidder and then put a DEP on that fleet. In the next few years most of the Cadets in LGW will be released from their initial 5 year freeze which means that no external pilots will get a sniff of the 747, although the 777 is very unpopular so expect that to always be availiable. However a fleets popularity can change over night. When the -400 first came in nobody would go near it and some very junior guys got comands, that soon changed as people realised how much the long range payments were worth.
But don't take my word for it........or anything off Pprune.....contact BALPA and get the facts for yourself. If you are not a BALPA member then shame on you. I shouldn't bother asking the admin staff at BA. They are about as useful as a chocolate teapot, as those who are about to join will find out.
When the phone goes and you are offered a fleet my strong advice would be to ask which starts first.
In the past pilots have been sitting in the 757 sim about to do their final check to be told "it's all changed chaps you are now 737."
Very important that people realise that for 5 years you can be put where you are needed and that you are not part of the Postings process, although you will get a bid. However once out of your 5 year freeze then your posting bid takes prority over any external applicant. BA can't deny a 747 place to an internal bidder and then put a DEP on that fleet. In the next few years most of the Cadets in LGW will be released from their initial 5 year freeze which means that no external pilots will get a sniff of the 747, although the 777 is very unpopular so expect that to always be availiable. However a fleets popularity can change over night. When the -400 first came in nobody would go near it and some very junior guys got comands, that soon changed as people realised how much the long range payments were worth.
But don't take my word for it........or anything off Pprune.....contact BALPA and get the facts for yourself. If you are not a BALPA member then shame on you. I shouldn't bother asking the admin staff at BA. They are about as useful as a chocolate teapot, as those who are about to join will find out.
When the phone goes and you are offered a fleet my strong advice would be to ask which starts first.
Mach 3
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Questions for BA gurus:
[list=1][*] If an existing 73 type-rated pilot is recruited into BA on their 73 fleet, is he/she "type-frozen" on that fleet for 5 years, or is it the case that the "frozen" pilots are those who joined BA on a different fleet to that they were currently type-rated on because BA obviously picks up this cost?
[*] If the aforementioned pilot is not "type frozen", is he/she eligible from day one (or at such time as the annual bid process commences) to bid onto another fleet? Is my understanding correct that this bid would be considered in line with the pilots seniority, and honoured or declined as a result, notwithstanding the fact that if the company needed you anywhere within the first 5 years, it is able to re-locate you accordingly? This re-location occurs in order of juniority?
[*] Is it possible that re-location these days would indeed include possible destinations such as MAN or BHX or is the choice purely between LGW or LHR?
[*] Big Kahuna Burger has posted the retirement figures for the next few years and made a prediction of your possible TTC based on these. Depending on how you view things, this might represent a best or worst case scenario.
The argument is based on the premise that the only mechanism one advances up the seniority list is by virtue of the guys/gals at the top retiring. No figure is included for those who leave of their own volition/dis-enfranchisement with the company/personal reasons/loss of medicals etc etc. This may run at a small percentage but it is highly relevant bearing in mind the numbers are small anyway. Even if this figure is 1%/year of the workforce, this is 30 pilots which is ~40% of the retirements in 2013.
In addition, no figures are included for fleet expansion. Whilst the fleet has not expanded for ~5 years, if normalized fleet expansion is considered over the last 20 years, by how much has the pilot workforce grown? Again, is 1%/year a realistic figure?
If this is the case, the cumulative effect of both the above is effectively to add 60 pilots per year to the retirement figures in Big Kahuna Burger's table. This makes ~6 years difference to TTC.
What would be helpful is if the figures for the last 20 years are also made available and the reality compared with what was predicted 20 years ago. This affords the would-be applicant a more balanced view although past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
[*] What are the latest best guesses as to fleet composition/number in the next 5 years? Is a particular fleet expanding/shrinking?[/list=1]
[list=1][*] If an existing 73 type-rated pilot is recruited into BA on their 73 fleet, is he/she "type-frozen" on that fleet for 5 years, or is it the case that the "frozen" pilots are those who joined BA on a different fleet to that they were currently type-rated on because BA obviously picks up this cost?
[*] If the aforementioned pilot is not "type frozen", is he/she eligible from day one (or at such time as the annual bid process commences) to bid onto another fleet? Is my understanding correct that this bid would be considered in line with the pilots seniority, and honoured or declined as a result, notwithstanding the fact that if the company needed you anywhere within the first 5 years, it is able to re-locate you accordingly? This re-location occurs in order of juniority?
[*] Is it possible that re-location these days would indeed include possible destinations such as MAN or BHX or is the choice purely between LGW or LHR?
[*] Big Kahuna Burger has posted the retirement figures for the next few years and made a prediction of your possible TTC based on these. Depending on how you view things, this might represent a best or worst case scenario.
The argument is based on the premise that the only mechanism one advances up the seniority list is by virtue of the guys/gals at the top retiring. No figure is included for those who leave of their own volition/dis-enfranchisement with the company/personal reasons/loss of medicals etc etc. This may run at a small percentage but it is highly relevant bearing in mind the numbers are small anyway. Even if this figure is 1%/year of the workforce, this is 30 pilots which is ~40% of the retirements in 2013.
In addition, no figures are included for fleet expansion. Whilst the fleet has not expanded for ~5 years, if normalized fleet expansion is considered over the last 20 years, by how much has the pilot workforce grown? Again, is 1%/year a realistic figure?
If this is the case, the cumulative effect of both the above is effectively to add 60 pilots per year to the retirement figures in Big Kahuna Burger's table. This makes ~6 years difference to TTC.
What would be helpful is if the figures for the last 20 years are also made available and the reality compared with what was predicted 20 years ago. This affords the would-be applicant a more balanced view although past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
[*] What are the latest best guesses as to fleet composition/number in the next 5 years? Is a particular fleet expanding/shrinking?[/list=1]
If an existing 73 type-rated pilot is recruited into BA on their 73 fleet, is he/she "type-frozen" on that fleet for 5 years, or is it the case that the "frozen" pilots are those who joined BA on a different fleet to that they were currently type-rated on because BA obviously picks up this cost?
If the aforementioned pilot is not "type frozen", is he/she eligible from day one (or at such time as the annual bid process commences) to bid onto another fleet? Is my understanding correct that this bid would be considered in line with the pilots seniority, and honoured or declined as a result, notwithstanding the fact that if the company needed you anywhere within the first 5 years, it is able to re-locate you accordingly? This re-location occurs in order of juniority?
Is it possible that re-location these days would indeed include possible destinations such as MAN or BHX or is the choice purely between LGW or LHR?
In addition, no figures are included for fleet expansion. Whilst the fleet has not expanded for ~5 years, if normalized fleet expansion is considered over the last 20 years, by how much has the pilot workforce grown? Again, is 1%/year a realistic figure?
If this is the case, the cumulative effect of both the above is effectively to add 60 pilots per year to the retirement figures in Big Kahuna Burger's table. This makes ~6 years difference to TTC.
What would be helpful is if the figures for the last 20 years are also made available and the reality compared with what was predicted 20 years ago. This affords the would-be applicant a more balanced view although past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
What are the latest best guesses as to fleet composition/number in the next 5 years? Is a particular fleet expanding/shrinking?
At the moment, what BA wants and what it can have are kept apart by a few billion £'s of debt. My guess would be A321,350,(380) and B777-300,7E7 as being on the Christmas list...
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SR71,
I believe BA plan on a "wastage rate," as they so nicely put it, of 1% - that is people leaving for reasons other than retirement - loss of licence, snuffing it etc etc
I have a "forecast seniority list" produced about 9 or 10 years ago and it is remarkably accurate. (I think it was based on normal retirements plus 1% wastage). I am about 30 places "better off" than it predicted - this year the prediction is closer to my actual number than ever, I was about 90 places better off 4 or 5 years ago - I guess that's because those that left early for whatever reason would now have retired anyway.
So the figures suggest that in the last 10 years only 3 people/year have left of their own accord to do something else.
I believe BA plan on a "wastage rate," as they so nicely put it, of 1% - that is people leaving for reasons other than retirement - loss of licence, snuffing it etc etc
I have a "forecast seniority list" produced about 9 or 10 years ago and it is remarkably accurate. (I think it was based on normal retirements plus 1% wastage). I am about 30 places "better off" than it predicted - this year the prediction is closer to my actual number than ever, I was about 90 places better off 4 or 5 years ago - I guess that's because those that left early for whatever reason would now have retired anyway.
So the figures suggest that in the last 10 years only 3 people/year have left of their own accord to do something else.
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In addition, no figures are included for fleet expansion. Whilst the fleet has not expanded for ~5 years, if normalized fleet expansion is considered over the last 20 years, by how much has the pilot workforce grown? Again, is 1%/year a realistic figure?
If an existing 73 type-rated pilot is recruited into BA on their 73 fleet, is he/she "type-frozen" on that fleet for 5 years, or is it the case that the "frozen" pilots are those who joined BA on a different fleet to that they were currently type-rated on because BA obviously picks up this cost?
Fleets:[list=1][*]744 - will reduce if BA can find someone to take them (we own them all)[*]777 - possible expansion, maybe 773?[*]757/767 - no expansion, but drift towards more LH. If anyone offers BA tuppence for the 767s they'll be gone the next day...[*]Airbus - fleet expansion almost complete now, and will be by summer[*]737 - not worth discussing. They come and go, and popup at all sorts of bases and variants and are unprecdictable[*]Future - A330/A350/7E7 maybe? Particularly as a 767 replacement. A380? Maybe, but only a few...[/list=1] Hope that helps!
NoD
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Squatter,
Talk about a desirable workforce retention figure!
NoD,
Being a dummy, an engagement freeze is? Basically you stay where you are told to/put until such time as the 5 years is up or a bid of yours onto your desired fleet is honoured?
Cheers,
So the figures suggest that in the last 10 years only 3 people/year have left of their own accord to do something else.
NoD,
Being a dummy, an engagement freeze is? Basically you stay where you are told to/put until such time as the 5 years is up or a bid of yours onto your desired fleet is honoured?
Cheers,
Last edited by SR71; 8th Nov 2004 at 14:28.
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SR71,
The engagement freeze is just the name of the type freeze you get on joining the company and it lasts for 5 years. The difference between it and a subsequent type freeze you get from bidding to a different fleet is that during the engagement freeze you can be moved by BA to any posting at their whim, after 5 years in the company you only move fleets by placing a bid (and being senior enough and there being a vacancy on your new fleet, of course.)
If you do have a successful bid (freeze waiver granted by BA for whatever reason) you are re-frozen for the greater of the rest of your engagement freeze OR the new freeze on type. That's not really applicable now since type freezes are longer than they once were.
The freeze periods are very approximate anyway as they apply only to the "training year" which starts on the 1st June. This means a pilot who starts a course on 2nd of June 2003 and another who starts his course on 30th May 2004 will both have completed one year of their freeze period by 1st June 2004 despite the first pilot having served a year more than the other.
The engagement freeze is just the name of the type freeze you get on joining the company and it lasts for 5 years. The difference between it and a subsequent type freeze you get from bidding to a different fleet is that during the engagement freeze you can be moved by BA to any posting at their whim, after 5 years in the company you only move fleets by placing a bid (and being senior enough and there being a vacancy on your new fleet, of course.)
If you do have a successful bid (freeze waiver granted by BA for whatever reason) you are re-frozen for the greater of the rest of your engagement freeze OR the new freeze on type. That's not really applicable now since type freezes are longer than they once were.
The freeze periods are very approximate anyway as they apply only to the "training year" which starts on the 1st June. This means a pilot who starts a course on 2nd of June 2003 and another who starts his course on 30th May 2004 will both have completed one year of their freeze period by 1st June 2004 despite the first pilot having served a year more than the other.
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squatter,
When you talk of starting a course, do you mean starting your training course on type or actual starting date with the company?
I only ask as there is normally a 1-2 week period of induction/CRM courses. This could affect guys who may get a start date towards the end of May.
Ta...
When you talk of starting a course, do you mean starting your training course on type or actual starting date with the company?
I only ask as there is normally a 1-2 week period of induction/CRM courses. This could affect guys who may get a start date towards the end of May.
Ta...
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When you talk of starting a course, do you mean starting your training course on type or actual starting date with the company?
