Ba's DEP fleets
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4AD
Aside from Leave / Duty Free weeks, best you work on Zero for the first 3-4 years. Anything better than that is a bonus... You might get a few by luck, but they will be random, and nothing to do with your preferences / bidding.
First 5 years is postings (or not) "entirely at the discretion of BA". So if they reinvent ATPs out of Macrihanish, off you go if BA want...
3 problems:
1. You need the 5 year "freeze" to be waived, or wait 5 years <G>
2. You then need to successfully bid i.e. your current fleet can spare you, the new fleet / seat needs people, AND you are senior enough to be eligible for that seat.
3. And, like the P2s now waiting for LH, it all gets scr*wed up, because BA recruit a load of DEPs directly onto the 777, and take all the slots that would have been due in 2 above.
Bear in mind with 2006 coming along, all "traditional" progression will slow down. And maybe in disproportionate ways - just a small slow down in retirements could mean all LH P2s coming in as DEPs i.e. anyone recruited onto SH will not see a P2 LH slot before say a SH Command (10 years? 15 years?).
Be very careful... check out the red tails <G>
How many weekends might a junior guy expect to get off per month? Are we talking zero month in month out!?
I believe there is a 3 year seat hold (maybe more).
What is the likelihood that you could then successfully bid 777 FO?
1. You need the 5 year "freeze" to be waived, or wait 5 years <G>
2. You then need to successfully bid i.e. your current fleet can spare you, the new fleet / seat needs people, AND you are senior enough to be eligible for that seat.
3. And, like the P2s now waiting for LH, it all gets scr*wed up, because BA recruit a load of DEPs directly onto the 777, and take all the slots that would have been due in 2 above.
Bear in mind with 2006 coming along, all "traditional" progression will slow down. And maybe in disproportionate ways - just a small slow down in retirements could mean all LH P2s coming in as DEPs i.e. anyone recruited onto SH will not see a P2 LH slot before say a SH Command (10 years? 15 years?).
Be very careful... check out the red tails <G>
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Nigelondraft is not quite right in his understanding of our P&P process. DEP's cannot be put onto LH fleets ahead of successful internal bidders, the only time this can occur is for pilots that have successfully bid for a fleet change but are still in their first 5 years of service which means BA can ignore their bid. Basically it means that you will be able to move to any LH fleet after 5 years.
737 LGW work is fairly similar to LHR work but with a lot less nightstops.
Roster wise you will not get much choice to start with but will generally get at least one weekend off a month. However the best thing is that once published your roster can't be changed. Heaven if you've come from less stable operations. Nobody is junior for long.....not that it feels that way at the time.
Pay is the best it has ever been for new joiners. Last years pay restructuring meant that new joinewrs have won big time at the expense of the more Senior FO's on LH.
Working out of LHR is a pain in the arse........roll on T5.
737 LGW work is fairly similar to LHR work but with a lot less nightstops.
Roster wise you will not get much choice to start with but will generally get at least one weekend off a month. However the best thing is that once published your roster can't be changed. Heaven if you've come from less stable operations. Nobody is junior for long.....not that it feels that way at the time.
Pay is the best it has ever been for new joiners. Last years pay restructuring meant that new joinewrs have won big time at the expense of the more Senior FO's on LH.
Working out of LHR is a pain in the arse........roll on T5.
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JBC
I was not aware of that... thanks for correcting me.
However (!):
I would still disagree with this. Reasons:
NoD
Nigelondraft is not quite right in his understanding of our P&P process. DEP's cannot be put onto LH fleets ahead of successful internal bidders, the only time this can occur is for pilots that have successfully bid for a fleet change but are still in their first 5 years of service which means BA can ignore their bid
However (!):
Basically it means that you will be able to move to any LH fleet after 5 years
- Post 2006 all progression will slow down - how much who knows, but somewhere between no effect and a complete standstill
- Whilst you are frozen on SH for your 5 years - the DEPs are coming in and taking the slots, and then sticking in them.
- People above you wanting the slots, but held back as well...
NoD
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Just below CAP.
I know where you are coming from but you may be slightly incorrect.
Can't BA place DEP's on the fleet ahead of bidders?
They just change the requirement on Cassandra and therefore offer less courses internally. You never have a course until you're on it.
ie instead of 40 courses on Cassandra they can have 30 and 10 DEP's??
As for moving to LH after 5 years. Well you can bid but there'sno guarantee. Its only in the last 7 years or so that RHS 744 came below about 8 years service.
BTSM
I know where you are coming from but you may be slightly incorrect.
Can't BA place DEP's on the fleet ahead of bidders?
They just change the requirement on Cassandra and therefore offer less courses internally. You never have a course until you're on it.
ie instead of 40 courses on Cassandra they can have 30 and 10 DEP's??
As for moving to LH after 5 years. Well you can bid but there'sno guarantee. Its only in the last 7 years or so that RHS 744 came below about 8 years service.
BTSM
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Fair point about 2006...but who knows what is going to happen...aviation will probably be exempt.
All aspirational bids have to be honoured before any external applicants can move onto a fleet. If there are 40 places on the -400 and 40 unfrozen pilots bid for -400 places then there will be no DEP's on the -400. However many of the guys who are bidding at the moment are under either the initial 5 year freeze or in a 4 year equipment freeze. Which is why the company can put pilots on the LH fleets. In the not too distant future, as the LGW pilots become unfrozen, I think it highly unlikely that any DEP's will go to the -400.
(A note of caution to those joining, the last lot of DEP's were given -400 slots. It even had this written on their contract. However when they turned up for day one they were all put on the 'bus. Some have really enjoyed it and will probably never go LH but some were VERY pissed off as they commuted from the furthest flung parts of the UK. BA can do what they like with you in the first five years. Please bear in mind that what is written on the contract may not be the aircraft you end up on. Some guys even completed the -400 sim before being moved to the 'bus.)
behind the second midland
Don't take my word for it ask SM the BALPA rep or even better look at the BALPA BA forum. BA can't reduce the numbers for internal applicants and then put a DEP on that fleet. DEP's are used to fill in the gaps.
Promise
All aspirational bids have to be honoured before any external applicants can move onto a fleet. If there are 40 places on the -400 and 40 unfrozen pilots bid for -400 places then there will be no DEP's on the -400. However many of the guys who are bidding at the moment are under either the initial 5 year freeze or in a 4 year equipment freeze. Which is why the company can put pilots on the LH fleets. In the not too distant future, as the LGW pilots become unfrozen, I think it highly unlikely that any DEP's will go to the -400.
(A note of caution to those joining, the last lot of DEP's were given -400 slots. It even had this written on their contract. However when they turned up for day one they were all put on the 'bus. Some have really enjoyed it and will probably never go LH but some were VERY pissed off as they commuted from the furthest flung parts of the UK. BA can do what they like with you in the first five years. Please bear in mind that what is written on the contract may not be the aircraft you end up on. Some guys even completed the -400 sim before being moved to the 'bus.)
behind the second midland
Don't take my word for it ask SM the BALPA rep or even better look at the BALPA BA forum. BA can't reduce the numbers for internal applicants and then put a DEP on that fleet. DEP's are used to fill in the gaps.
Promise
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Sick
i'm sorry i have appear to have touched a nerve! You are way wide of the mark concerning my views on GSS. Just to set things straight...
I do not regard GSS pilots as such! I do regard the BA/GSS management handling of the situation in such low regards - i'm sure just as you do!
Professionally yes, of course!
Personally - i have witnessed some pretty impressive outbursts from GSS co-pilots downroute - often unprovoked. I can totally understand why they are so p***sed off - but the point i was making was launching outbursts at BA pilots/interviewers certainly wouldnt aid recruitment chances...
We should both be targetting our respective displeasure at our managements, NOT each other..
I quite agree with this - as do most BA pilots. This compromise deal is a LOSE/LOSE for both of us. We're not happy and you're not happy...
Great news - i would totally support that, and good luck to you guys if it comes off, why not! BA cargo is our business however - and so we want to be flying if for our outfit - just as you do with yours...
finally
Well i would be cheering if that were the case - as it would be a WIN/WIN for both GSS and BA pilots - all the flying inhouse on BA T'snC's and in the longterm that would be better for both of our careers...dont you agree?
i'm sorry i have appear to have touched a nerve! You are way wide of the mark concerning my views on GSS. Just to set things straight...
all those folk you hold in such low regards
All the secondees have been treated with the utmost courtesy and co-operation
Personally - i have witnessed some pretty impressive outbursts from GSS co-pilots downroute - often unprovoked. I can totally understand why they are so p***sed off - but the point i was making was launching outbursts at BA pilots/interviewers certainly wouldnt aid recruitment chances...
We should both be targetting our respective displeasure at our managements, NOT each other..
why the GSS FOs are still being treated so abysmally
Other customers ARE being actively sought
finally
Oh, and if need be I shall personally see to it that the fullest extent of TUPE regulations will be applied, so as to ensure that GSS Captains become BA Captains and further delay your promotion, just like you are doing to so many GSS FOs.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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4AD,
Sorry for the late reply, been away. Don't hold your breath about weekends off. You may be able to swap trips with colleagues if you're desperate but (certainly with Bidline at LHR) you're unlikely to see very many. As someone said, plan on zero and any more is a bonus. There may be more chance of the odd weekend off at LGW (they use the Carmen bidding system which I'm not familiar with).
Expect 15 years plus to a short haul command. I'm one of the luckier ones. As I joined at the start of the retirement bulge, I can expect a junior shorthaul command after around 12 years (basically another 5) and a junior longhaul command around 17 years (another 10). There are a large number of us who will be in the left seat for 20 years potentially so keep in mind that it's "Dead Man's Shoes". Depending on your age (ie. at what point you will retire), a long haul command may not ever happen for you.
It's not all doom and gloom by any means. Roster stability is like nothing else. Changes are pretty rare after publication. The money isn't bad either, although not as good as it used to be.
Keep in mind though, all LHR fleets are contracted for the full 900 flying hours per year (or 1043 credit hours in actual fact - the end result is pretty much the same
). If you want longhaul, this is worth taking into account when our nearest neighbours in red work to 750 flying hours for not dissimilar money.
Sorry for the late reply, been away. Don't hold your breath about weekends off. You may be able to swap trips with colleagues if you're desperate but (certainly with Bidline at LHR) you're unlikely to see very many. As someone said, plan on zero and any more is a bonus. There may be more chance of the odd weekend off at LGW (they use the Carmen bidding system which I'm not familiar with).
Expect 15 years plus to a short haul command. I'm one of the luckier ones. As I joined at the start of the retirement bulge, I can expect a junior shorthaul command after around 12 years (basically another 5) and a junior longhaul command around 17 years (another 10). There are a large number of us who will be in the left seat for 20 years potentially so keep in mind that it's "Dead Man's Shoes". Depending on your age (ie. at what point you will retire), a long haul command may not ever happen for you.
It's not all doom and gloom by any means. Roster stability is like nothing else. Changes are pretty rare after publication. The money isn't bad either, although not as good as it used to be.
Keep in mind though, all LHR fleets are contracted for the full 900 flying hours per year (or 1043 credit hours in actual fact - the end result is pretty much the same
). If you want longhaul, this is worth taking into account when our nearest neighbours in red work to 750 flying hours for not dissimilar money.
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Normal Nigel
There speaks the voice of somebody with very romantic illusions of the world around them, where the grass is always greener. In this world all doctors are high earners, all lawyers are greedy and paid beyond all our dreams. Well I've news for you that just isn't the case. I actually started life as a lawyer, then trained as a barrister but had to give it all up because sometimes you just have to do the thing that you love most. For me that was flying. Anybody who chooses a profession because of the renumeration will pay a high price for the once a month high received when looking at the payslip.
Out of the five or so people that I keep in contact with who have stayed in the legal profession only one earns more than I do. I've been quite lucky in my BA life but to assume that every lawyer/barrister is living the LA Law life is simply not true.
My next door neighbour is a GP. Again he earns nothing like the amount I take home each month. Also if you think BA is badly run you should hear stories about the NHS. Makes EWS seem like a smooth running swiss clock. His time as a junior doctor is comparable to how many pilots are treated early on in their working life.
Their view of how pilots are treated is as romantic as your view of the other professions.
If you want to fly don't do it for the money because a cockpit is a lonely place for somebody who doesn't love flying. I've flown with guys who, deep down, are afraid of flying having joined the airline for the wrong reasons. These poor people are in a constant state of panic, the slightest noise or bump making them react as if the aircraft will fall out the sky. A sad way to earn your living.
If you want to fly then BA still offers you the best long term security. We work hard but the pay is good. The new pension is not so great but that is a function of society and not the airline. Again it pays to be in the airline with the greatest chance of long term survival, as far as pensions are concerned, in the UK that is still BA. Seniority is everything, you'd be a fool to turn down LGW because the differance of even a hundred places can change your career massively. 737 is a good aircraft to start flying on, LGW has a pretty good network. But most importantly of all you will only be there for a few years, if thats what you want, and when those precious commands start becoming availiable you will get them before your mates who all those years ago wanted to wait till they were offered 777. Anybody who turns down a fleet at BA with the intention of waiting for a "better" fleet hasn't understood how the seniority system works.
1. The senior pilot ALWAYS gets the roster he wants before the next most senior. For the rest of your career.
2. The senior pilot ALWAYS gets to fly on the aircraft he wants before the next most senior. For the rest of your career.
3. The senior pilot will ALWAYS get his chance at command before the next most senior. For the rest of your career.
In the past one place has made the difference between getting a command after 7 years or waiting 17 years. All those that have taken LGW places will get their commands before those waiting for 747 places. And BA can do what it wants with you in the first 5 years...so 747 may turn out to be the 'bus on day 2. That's what happened with the last lot of DEP's. If you want to join BA then take the first job that is offered.
There speaks the voice of somebody with very romantic illusions of the world around them, where the grass is always greener. In this world all doctors are high earners, all lawyers are greedy and paid beyond all our dreams. Well I've news for you that just isn't the case. I actually started life as a lawyer, then trained as a barrister but had to give it all up because sometimes you just have to do the thing that you love most. For me that was flying. Anybody who chooses a profession because of the renumeration will pay a high price for the once a month high received when looking at the payslip.
Out of the five or so people that I keep in contact with who have stayed in the legal profession only one earns more than I do. I've been quite lucky in my BA life but to assume that every lawyer/barrister is living the LA Law life is simply not true.
My next door neighbour is a GP. Again he earns nothing like the amount I take home each month. Also if you think BA is badly run you should hear stories about the NHS. Makes EWS seem like a smooth running swiss clock. His time as a junior doctor is comparable to how many pilots are treated early on in their working life.
Their view of how pilots are treated is as romantic as your view of the other professions.
If you want to fly don't do it for the money because a cockpit is a lonely place for somebody who doesn't love flying. I've flown with guys who, deep down, are afraid of flying having joined the airline for the wrong reasons. These poor people are in a constant state of panic, the slightest noise or bump making them react as if the aircraft will fall out the sky. A sad way to earn your living.
If you want to fly then BA still offers you the best long term security. We work hard but the pay is good. The new pension is not so great but that is a function of society and not the airline. Again it pays to be in the airline with the greatest chance of long term survival, as far as pensions are concerned, in the UK that is still BA. Seniority is everything, you'd be a fool to turn down LGW because the differance of even a hundred places can change your career massively. 737 is a good aircraft to start flying on, LGW has a pretty good network. But most importantly of all you will only be there for a few years, if thats what you want, and when those precious commands start becoming availiable you will get them before your mates who all those years ago wanted to wait till they were offered 777. Anybody who turns down a fleet at BA with the intention of waiting for a "better" fleet hasn't understood how the seniority system works.
1. The senior pilot ALWAYS gets the roster he wants before the next most senior. For the rest of your career.
2. The senior pilot ALWAYS gets to fly on the aircraft he wants before the next most senior. For the rest of your career.
3. The senior pilot will ALWAYS get his chance at command before the next most senior. For the rest of your career.
In the past one place has made the difference between getting a command after 7 years or waiting 17 years. All those that have taken LGW places will get their commands before those waiting for 747 places. And BA can do what it wants with you in the first 5 years...so 747 may turn out to be the 'bus on day 2. That's what happened with the last lot of DEP's. If you want to join BA then take the first job that is offered.
Relative Fleet Merits
Sorry to drag this up again, but as a potential DEP, if you had a choice of 777, 767/757 or 744, what would you choose?
I have had several people tell me that 767/757 is the way to go.
Regards
I have had several people tell me that 767/757 is the way to go.
Regards
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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As a junior DEP, I would choose 747-400, 777 and 7576 in that order.
The reason being, at the bottom of the pile, there isn't a great deal in it between the -400 and the 777. Ok, on the -400 you will probably get a seeded blind line, which means you will get something like an LAX and four 'guaranteed' days off around it but otherwise you will get largely two-crew trips (think JFK, PHL, LOS, etc.) which is what you would get on the 777. There is a seeded blind line trial on the 777 at the moment which, if it goes permanent, will mean a seeded trip (probably an East Coast, as most of the trips are of that sort of nature) but with the same 'guaranteed' four days off around it.
The 7576 does a mix of LH and SH flying, although the longhaul trips (generally to Africa although there's a MAN/JFK and NAS) can get quite senior so you'd be doing mostly shorthaul. It is considered a good fleet though.
If money is an issue, you will be paid more or less the same on the -400 and the 777, and marginally less on the 7576 as BA consider it "Medium Haul".
The reason being, at the bottom of the pile, there isn't a great deal in it between the -400 and the 777. Ok, on the -400 you will probably get a seeded blind line, which means you will get something like an LAX and four 'guaranteed' days off around it but otherwise you will get largely two-crew trips (think JFK, PHL, LOS, etc.) which is what you would get on the 777. There is a seeded blind line trial on the 777 at the moment which, if it goes permanent, will mean a seeded trip (probably an East Coast, as most of the trips are of that sort of nature) but with the same 'guaranteed' four days off around it.
The 7576 does a mix of LH and SH flying, although the longhaul trips (generally to Africa although there's a MAN/JFK and NAS) can get quite senior so you'd be doing mostly shorthaul. It is considered a good fleet though.
If money is an issue, you will be paid more or less the same on the -400 and the 777, and marginally less on the 7576 as BA consider it "Medium Haul".
