BA or Virgin? Which is better?
BA
Having joined BA last year:
Roster stability is good.
Bidline, although complicated allows me to bid quite successfully for a months work. I have been able to get to to most of the places I want to fly to. Have most of the days off that I want. Get some weekends off. Get a long run of non leave days off. Although not all at the same time.
The bidding system gives you the flexibility to manage commuting from almost anywhere.
777 is a top aircraft.
Destinations are good, all 35 ish of them, I like India, the Caribbean and China. But there are also some good trips to be had to the US, Africa and the Middle East. And we are getting Calgary and Singapore/Sydney.
There is a path to shorthall and other fleets.
Staff travel is good, when it works.
On the downside:
Time to captaincy is long on longhaul.
The pension is inadequate.
You are contracturally obliged to accept un rostered work, if 'they' can find you. Apparantly happens more than it rarely did previously. Never has happened to me or the majority of people I know.
Overall, a better deal than I was on a year ago and the bidding system is a major part of this.
Roster stability is good.
Bidline, although complicated allows me to bid quite successfully for a months work. I have been able to get to to most of the places I want to fly to. Have most of the days off that I want. Get some weekends off. Get a long run of non leave days off. Although not all at the same time.
The bidding system gives you the flexibility to manage commuting from almost anywhere.
777 is a top aircraft.
Destinations are good, all 35 ish of them, I like India, the Caribbean and China. But there are also some good trips to be had to the US, Africa and the Middle East. And we are getting Calgary and Singapore/Sydney.
There is a path to shorthall and other fleets.
Staff travel is good, when it works.
On the downside:
Time to captaincy is long on longhaul.
The pension is inadequate.
You are contracturally obliged to accept un rostered work, if 'they' can find you. Apparantly happens more than it rarely did previously. Never has happened to me or the majority of people I know.
Overall, a better deal than I was on a year ago and the bidding system is a major part of this.
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Originally Posted by Monarch Man
Scroggs..regarding T & C's Im doing a quick comparison (guess where I work..
)
A couple of quick questions.
Are you aware of any plans to introduce a lower scale for new joiners?
Can you confirm that VS guys contracts are based on 750hrs per year?..and if so is overtime paid if you go up to 900?
Lastly, is it true that the allowances are based on the local cost of living? i.e. Cuba accrues less allowances than HK.
Thanks in advance
)A couple of quick questions.
Are you aware of any plans to introduce a lower scale for new joiners?
Can you confirm that VS guys contracts are based on 750hrs per year?..and if so is overtime paid if you go up to 900?
Lastly, is it true that the allowances are based on the local cost of living? i.e. Cuba accrues less allowances than HK.
Thanks in advance
There is not and will not be a 'B' scale. There has been no suggestion of any such thing, and there is no way we would allow it. That is not an empty claim.
The contract is 750 hours per year. There are options for fewer (370 or 640) hours for limited periods. There is also an extra working agreement for those who wish to take it on; they do so by volunteering at the start of the rostering year. There is no way that extra work can be imposed on any line pilot.
Allowances are based on the costs in the accommodating hotel. As an example, we use four different hotels in New York (certain hotels for certain flight numbers). The daily allowances in these hotels vary by up to $40 (though the trip allowances vary by a greater amount, dependent on arrival and departure times and the number of meal peiods covered). The average daily allowance is about £90 - £100.
More information on Virgin's Ts & Cs can be found in this thread.
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I'm currently flying with KLM on the 777 as a second officer, 1,5 year of seniority, does anybody know if changing to BA when I reach the 500 hours on type and ATPL is a good carreermove? This is just a thing I was thinking about, no real plans at the moment.
I recognize a lot of the bad comments on BA regarding the attitude management has towards its pilots, and the overall service, we have that problem in KLM too, I think that from the european majors only Air France is still up tot standards in this aspect!
I recognize a lot of the bad comments on BA regarding the attitude management has towards its pilots, and the overall service, we have that problem in KLM too, I think that from the european majors only Air France is still up tot standards in this aspect!
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holiday time?
Back in the early posts of this thread, the topic came up of weekends and time off etc etc.
I know it probably depends on long haul/short haul but which of the two (BA or VS) is (generally) better in terms of time off?
Like which one is more likely to give you a few days at the other end of the flight to sightsee or relax or whatnot?
I rather like the idea that being a Pilot would allow travel (!)
Sarah
I know it probably depends on long haul/short haul but which of the two (BA or VS) is (generally) better in terms of time off?
Like which one is more likely to give you a few days at the other end of the flight to sightsee or relax or whatnot?
I rather like the idea that being a Pilot would allow travel (!)
Sarah
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Weekends off in any 24/7 airline will be at the mercy of seniority. Total time off will tend to be a bit better in the 'legacy' carriers than the locos because of mature company/union working agreements. Time at home will tend to be more useful and longer on longhaul than shorthaul.
Shorthaul in any airline will rarely give you a nightstop of greater than mimimum length, and thus sightseeing opportunities will be severely limited. In longhaul it will depend on the schedule. many holiday-based routes aren't daily, and thus you may get two, three or more days at your destination. Depending on union agreements and flight time limitations, ultra-longhaul flights will normally have at least two local nights on the ground, so longhaul is the place to be if you want to see the world.
BA covers many more longhaul destinations than Virgin, who have only 25 or so destinations. However, individual fleets will not serve all destinations - I would guess that the BA 777 fleet has the widest coverage. Virgin has most of the best places to go, and few of the real fleapits of the world (depanding on your prefereneces), so the nice place/flight ratio is pretty good!
There are disadvantages, however, and they've been covered many times before. In short: fatigue, lack of poling time, extended stays away from home, and the impact of foreign food on a tender British digestive system are all reasons why longhaul doesn't suit everyone.
Shorthaul in any airline will rarely give you a nightstop of greater than mimimum length, and thus sightseeing opportunities will be severely limited. In longhaul it will depend on the schedule. many holiday-based routes aren't daily, and thus you may get two, three or more days at your destination. Depending on union agreements and flight time limitations, ultra-longhaul flights will normally have at least two local nights on the ground, so longhaul is the place to be if you want to see the world.
BA covers many more longhaul destinations than Virgin, who have only 25 or so destinations. However, individual fleets will not serve all destinations - I would guess that the BA 777 fleet has the widest coverage. Virgin has most of the best places to go, and few of the real fleapits of the world (depanding on your prefereneces), so the nice place/flight ratio is pretty good!
There are disadvantages, however, and they've been covered many times before. In short: fatigue, lack of poling time, extended stays away from home, and the impact of foreign food on a tender British digestive system are all reasons why longhaul doesn't suit everyone.
Travel or Work
I can't answer for VS, but when I saw a crew in Mumbai/Bombay the other day, they were on a 3 day trip and we were on a 4 day trip (3 for cabin crew).
It really depends on frequency of service. In BA sometimes we operate daily, several times daily, only a few times a week, or change aircraft type on different days. And this also changes between seasons.
Generally on a daily service you will have about 24 hours at destination before taking the next one back home.
On the 777 you get complete free days off to 'sight see' etc at the following destinations, but not on all flights:
Barbados, Boston, Cairo, Bahrain (but fly to Doha), Beijing, Shanghai, Harare, Atlanta, Newark, Washington, New York, Orlando, Tampa, Toronto, Montreal, Antigua (but some days have to fly to St Lucia/Grenada/Tobago), Kingston, Abu Dhabi (but fly to Muscat), Bangalore, Mumbai, Calcutta, Dhaka, Chennai/Madras.
It really depends on frequency of service. In BA sometimes we operate daily, several times daily, only a few times a week, or change aircraft type on different days. And this also changes between seasons.
Generally on a daily service you will have about 24 hours at destination before taking the next one back home.
On the 777 you get complete free days off to 'sight see' etc at the following destinations, but not on all flights:
Barbados, Boston, Cairo, Bahrain (but fly to Doha), Beijing, Shanghai, Harare, Atlanta, Newark, Washington, New York, Orlando, Tampa, Toronto, Montreal, Antigua (but some days have to fly to St Lucia/Grenada/Tobago), Kingston, Abu Dhabi (but fly to Muscat), Bangalore, Mumbai, Calcutta, Dhaka, Chennai/Madras.
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I started with BA on the 777 at the start of the year. So far, I have not been drafted, and have had pretty good success at bidding for work, especially days off.
As far as I know, BA is the only UK L/H operator to allocate work by bidline, a system that allows you to bid work from a list of complete lines of work each month. This means you can bid for days off or destinations, depending on your preference. Lines are allocated in seniority order, and if you dont get one, you are then in the same boat as any other airline, with a preferencing system, where your work is allocated, taking preferences int account if possible.
For me, Bidline alone makes BA stand out as my top choice.
You do hear a lot of whinging on here about BA. In my view, this is due to:
1. BA has more pilots than anyone else, by a mile.
2. BA used to be SO good, that the terms have slipped a little, but it is still well up there.
I left the RAF this year as a Training Captain with the transport fleet, and was lucky to have a good choice of UK airlines. The positive reasons I chose BA are:
1. Direct Entry Longhaul on 777
2. Good pay
3. Solid BALPA membership
4. Stability (No layoffs post 9/11)
5. BIDLINE
As far as I know, BA is the only UK L/H operator to allocate work by bidline, a system that allows you to bid work from a list of complete lines of work each month. This means you can bid for days off or destinations, depending on your preference. Lines are allocated in seniority order, and if you dont get one, you are then in the same boat as any other airline, with a preferencing system, where your work is allocated, taking preferences int account if possible.
For me, Bidline alone makes BA stand out as my top choice.
You do hear a lot of whinging on here about BA. In my view, this is due to:
1. BA has more pilots than anyone else, by a mile.
2. BA used to be SO good, that the terms have slipped a little, but it is still well up there.
I left the RAF this year as a Training Captain with the transport fleet, and was lucky to have a good choice of UK airlines. The positive reasons I chose BA are:
1. Direct Entry Longhaul on 777
2. Good pay
3. Solid BALPA membership
4. Stability (No layoffs post 9/11)
5. BIDLINE
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fokkerking, are you serious? You really don’t know how lucky you are! Stay put and say thank-you to God everyday. Co-Co KLM must be one of the best jobs in aviation.
lekkerste, 10 years BA -400 and ex-KLM 737.
lekkerste, 10 years BA -400 and ex-KLM 737.
BA or not
currently a Captain with the worlds favourite Orange Airline. Considering whether Ba is still worth the jump to become a longhaul B777 F/O .
Any advice or experiences?
Any advice or experiences?
coogansrun
IMHO it depends on how old you are and how much you hanker after Command responsibility ( notice I didn't use the word "status").
Given the very recent change to retirement age you will sit as an F/O on any Fleet for years and years and......
Given the very recent change to retirement age you will sit as an F/O on any Fleet for years and years and......
Thanks Wiggy. Command is all very well - good take home about £4400 per month but very hard to imagine working this hard until I retire. Im currently late 30s so its a now or never with BA.
Any more BA longhaul lifestyle issue opinions would be appreciated.
Any more BA longhaul lifestyle issue opinions would be appreciated.
coogansrun
I'm not on the 777, I'm on the 744 so my advice comes with a health warning.
Life at BA is no bed of roses, be under no doubts that you will certainly be working hard on the 744/747. I know that on Longhaul you do not do the x sector days you do at EZE but BA have got rostering down to such a fine art, despite Bidline, that you will probably find your monthly/annual hours at EZE and BA will be much the same, and will often be doing 6 trips a month, some possibly "back to back". Couple that with the time zone changes and night flights and you will be fatigued for a lot of the time, albeit in a different way to that in Shorthaul.
The other issue you might want to consider is time at home, particularly if you have kids. Long slips downroute can be great but remember you're not getting home every/most nights, for some an plus
for others a minus 
.
(edited to make more sense.....)
Life at BA is no bed of roses, be under no doubts that you will certainly be working hard on the 744/747. I know that on Longhaul you do not do the x sector days you do at EZE but BA have got rostering down to such a fine art, despite Bidline, that you will probably find your monthly/annual hours at EZE and BA will be much the same, and will often be doing 6 trips a month, some possibly "back to back". Couple that with the time zone changes and night flights and you will be fatigued for a lot of the time, albeit in a different way to that in Shorthaul.
The other issue you might want to consider is time at home, particularly if you have kids. Long slips downroute can be great but remember you're not getting home every/most nights, for some an plus
for others a minus .(edited to make more sense.....)
Last edited by wiggy; 21st Jul 2006 at 16:03.
Never done 6 trips a month.
Only been back to back on reserve.
Most 777 trips are about +/-5 hr time change if not less (Middle East).
Not so many long slips on the 777.
I guess life is different on the 744.
Oh and not many early starts either.
Last 2 months of full flying (and only 2 months of full flying this year) I achieved 14 clear days at home and 18 nights at home each month.
I like it.
Pension is still rubbish though.
Only been back to back on reserve.
Most 777 trips are about +/-5 hr time change if not less (Middle East).
Not so many long slips on the 777.
I guess life is different on the 744.
Oh and not many early starts either.
Last 2 months of full flying (and only 2 months of full flying this year) I achieved 14 clear days at home and 18 nights at home each month.
I like it.
Pension is still rubbish though.
Mostly agree Mr R, but the 6 trip months certainly do happen...spoke to a 777 victim earlier today in Compass Centre ( why was I lurking there? - I'm in the middle of a back to back 
). Then again both he and I were trip line holders trying to make the dreaded CAP to avoid pay being docked.
I used to like it.................
Rgds
). Then again both he and I were trip line holders trying to make the dreaded CAP to avoid pay being docked.I used to like it.................
Rgds
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I'm in the middle of a back to back
I've bid for a back-to-back as well in August (same fleet) but it's only the second time in 12 months.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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On the 777, five trips a month is about the norm. Six is certainly a realistic possiblity. Rest assured (sic), you will be knackered.
Most of the 777s do not have bunks fitted for long-range work. Sixteen (the ERs) do, although it's a bit of a lash up at the back of First class. It is possible to get a reasonable kip though. Six of these jets will be fitted with the proper overhead rest area at some point. (I'll believe it when I see it.
)
To further Mr Ripley's comments (horses for courses though, I suppose):
Never done 6 trips a month.
Fair comment. As already mentioned, five is about the norm although six is a possibility.
Only been back to back on reserve.
Lucky. As a junior pilot, you'll probably be a Blind Line Holder (rostered) so you cannot be forced to "back-to-back". As a Trip Line Holder, you may need to bid for it to make CAP.
Most 777 trips are about +/-5 hr time change if not less (Middle East).
This is changing markedly. Keep in mind how much fuel costs and how little a 777 burns compared to a -400. The 777 will be operating the SIN/SYD service by the end of the year and is planned to operate the BKK/SYD and the SIN service in due course. Don't rule out a return to South America either.
Not so many long slips on the 777.
Ditto.
I guess life is different on the 744.
At the moment. The more long-range trips on the 777, the fewer long-range trips on the -400.
Oh and not many early starts either.
Also changing.
Last 2 months of full flying (and only 2 months of full flying this year) I achieved 14 clear days at home and 18 nights at home each month.
About normal.
I like it.
Good.
Pension is still rubbish though.
Couldn't agree more.
Most of the 777s do not have bunks fitted for long-range work. Sixteen (the ERs) do, although it's a bit of a lash up at the back of First class. It is possible to get a reasonable kip though. Six of these jets will be fitted with the proper overhead rest area at some point. (I'll believe it when I see it.
)To further Mr Ripley's comments (horses for courses though, I suppose):
Never done 6 trips a month.
Fair comment. As already mentioned, five is about the norm although six is a possibility.
Only been back to back on reserve.
Lucky. As a junior pilot, you'll probably be a Blind Line Holder (rostered) so you cannot be forced to "back-to-back". As a Trip Line Holder, you may need to bid for it to make CAP.
Most 777 trips are about +/-5 hr time change if not less (Middle East).
This is changing markedly. Keep in mind how much fuel costs and how little a 777 burns compared to a -400. The 777 will be operating the SIN/SYD service by the end of the year and is planned to operate the BKK/SYD and the SIN service in due course. Don't rule out a return to South America either.
Not so many long slips on the 777.
Ditto.
I guess life is different on the 744.
At the moment. The more long-range trips on the 777, the fewer long-range trips on the -400.
Oh and not many early starts either.
Also changing.
Last 2 months of full flying (and only 2 months of full flying this year) I achieved 14 clear days at home and 18 nights at home each month.
About normal.
I like it.
Good.
Pension is still rubbish though.
Couldn't agree more.
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Well i just had an interview with BA.
For those of you who were hoping for an FO slot on the 777 forget about it in the forseeable future (as their reps told us at the lunchtime break).
Only hiring for A320 fleet and 75/76 fleet.....
For those of you who were hoping for an FO slot on the 777 forget about it in the forseeable future (as their reps told us at the lunchtime break).
Only hiring for A320 fleet and 75/76 fleet.....
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Originally Posted by Poontang Luva
Only hiring for A320 fleet and 75/76 fleet.....
Does anybody know if there are as many applicants as last year?