BA or Virgin? Which is better?
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At Virgin not much has changed - though we have probably 170 more pilots than we did when this thread started, and we are continuing to recruit. 7 A346s are due to arrive this year (though we will lose 4 A343s), and another bunch (with no losses) next year. The A380 is still on the horizon (though delivery now looks likely to slip to 2009 thanks to problems at Airbus), and there are the beginnings of the process of replacing (or augmenting or extending the life of) the B744 fleet. New routes are steadily being introduced (Dubai and Jamaica plus extra New York (July) and Hong Kong (November) schedules this year), and there are some interesting new destinations proposed for the future. The next round of pay talks are just beginning, with the focus firmly on lifestyle issues. Incrementally, things are improving for us in almost every direction and the pilot workforce is generally persuaded that things are going in the right direction. There are a few issues, as there are anywhere, but no deal-breakers.
There are several threads on this board that suggest from within BA that things are not so great - and many of the complaints brought in this thread 2 years ago have not been satisfactorily addressed. The new pilot contract and pension arrangements have not gone down well, and, for a new-joiner, do not compare particularly favourably with Virgin's. BA is still a great company, and my many friends there say that things are not as bad as they are painted here by some, but there are none who, if they were looking for a job right now (and accepting that we are talking only about longhaul) would choose BA over Virgin.
Scroggs
There are several threads on this board that suggest from within BA that things are not so great - and many of the complaints brought in this thread 2 years ago have not been satisfactorily addressed. The new pilot contract and pension arrangements have not gone down well, and, for a new-joiner, do not compare particularly favourably with Virgin's. BA is still a great company, and my many friends there say that things are not as bad as they are painted here by some, but there are none who, if they were looking for a job right now (and accepting that we are talking only about longhaul) would choose BA over Virgin.
Scroggs
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with regard to employment issues, I was just wondering what the VS incremental pay is (2% + inflation?)? Are there pay negotiations coming up soon, and how much (average) do you get in downroute allowances??
Cheers.
Cheers.
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For specific information on Virgin's recruiting, T&Cs etc., look here. As for the next round of pay talks, as I said in my 30 April post:
The next round of pay talks are just beginning, with the focus firmly on lifestyle issues.
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The next round of pay negotiations are focused on lifestyle. Could anyone elaborate on how lifestyle could be improved?
At the moment pilots are flying 750 hours with excellent staff travel benefits on top (almost the best in the industry)?!!!
I have searched scroggs' previous posts on other threads and cannot find definitive details about annual increments. I have seen 2% + rpi (2-2.5%) as a ballpark figure.
Although I do not know the exact BA figures I believe they gain substantially higher increments than those quoted for VS!
With regard to trip allowances how much can one expect to take home per month? I understand that it depends on routes etc but an average figure would help!! (I have seen Scroggs' previous posts on this matter (£6000/yr, but have heard differing opinions ie up to £900/month=£10800/YEAR)
Cheers
SS320
At the moment pilots are flying 750 hours with excellent staff travel benefits on top (almost the best in the industry)?!!!
I have searched scroggs' previous posts on other threads and cannot find definitive details about annual increments. I have seen 2% + rpi (2-2.5%) as a ballpark figure.
Although I do not know the exact BA figures I believe they gain substantially higher increments than those quoted for VS!
With regard to trip allowances how much can one expect to take home per month? I understand that it depends on routes etc but an average figure would help!! (I have seen Scroggs' previous posts on this matter (£6000/yr, but have heard differing opinions ie up to £900/month=£10800/YEAR)
Cheers
SS320
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Annual increment is 2.5% in your anniversary month. Any increases due to a pay deal are on top of that.
Re allowances downroute, on the 'Bus I probably bring home (ie after looking after myself downroute) about £300 - £350/month. I haven't ever been sad enough to keep a record, so that might be an underestimate. Also, nb that I'm not a huge party animal, some of my more festive colleagues (!!) probably bring rather less than that home.
Re allowances downroute, on the 'Bus I probably bring home (ie after looking after myself downroute) about £300 - £350/month. I haven't ever been sad enough to keep a record, so that might be an underestimate. Also, nb that I'm not a huge party animal, some of my more festive colleagues (!!) probably bring rather less than that home.
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Sidestick lifestyle issues include things like rostering, the ability to plan days off in the future, leave allocation, overtime working agreements, and a host of other factors that individually are minor, but together can have a large effect on lifestyle. Improvements can always be made, and the goalposts are constantly moving even in the best of companies. And pay talks are never just about pay...!
You are confusing length-of-service increments with annual RPI uplifts. There is no element of RPI associated with LOS increments. The LOS incrementation is based on whatever your salary is on the anniversary of your entry to the company. RPI and other negotiated salary increases happen on an agreed date for all employees in a given group. The combination of increment and negotiated increase will be considerably more than the figures you mention. The details of the last BALPA-negotiated Virgin pay deal have been discussed and published here before; suffice to say the increase over the last three years has been very substantial. We don't earn as much as BA pilots do, particularly in the later years, but we don't work as hard either!
Allowances are based on an agreed daily subsistence rate for each hotel. This figure is agreed also with the Inland Revenue as adequate to provide a reasonable standard of living consistent with our expectations and the facilities on offer (themselves subject to union/company negotiation), and not as an income supplement, and is thus tax free as of earlier this year. The total allownces received in a year is highly dependent on where you go and how often you go there! One person could get £4000, another £10,000. Most will get something in between.
You are confusing length-of-service increments with annual RPI uplifts. There is no element of RPI associated with LOS increments. The LOS incrementation is based on whatever your salary is on the anniversary of your entry to the company. RPI and other negotiated salary increases happen on an agreed date for all employees in a given group. The combination of increment and negotiated increase will be considerably more than the figures you mention. The details of the last BALPA-negotiated Virgin pay deal have been discussed and published here before; suffice to say the increase over the last three years has been very substantial. We don't earn as much as BA pilots do, particularly in the later years, but we don't work as hard either!
Allowances are based on an agreed daily subsistence rate for each hotel. This figure is agreed also with the Inland Revenue as adequate to provide a reasonable standard of living consistent with our expectations and the facilities on offer (themselves subject to union/company negotiation), and not as an income supplement, and is thus tax free as of earlier this year. The total allownces received in a year is highly dependent on where you go and how often you go there! One person could get £4000, another £10,000. Most will get something in between.
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As a DEP you start on 44000 which goes up by about 2000 each year allowances looking at about 10000-13000 depends how much you get drafted etc. I believe our bidline system even though I am bottom 777 fleet is awesome and most importantly fair and transparent. How ever do think you may do a trip or two more a month with BA if on 777.
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Help required from BA chaps and girls
Hi all,
I would be very grateful for a bit of clarification from any BA peeps reading this. I realise that the nature of this forum is for gripes rather than glowing testimonials, however, as someone who may be in a position to join BA in the near future would anyone be able to enlighten me why there are so many bad vibes about the company at the moment? If you had a choice from other airlines who were offering you positions (Virgin/Monarch) would you prefer them to BA?
I shortly will be in position to decide which airline to work for (if any have me!) after my time flying in the military. I had always percieved BA to be one of the favourites, however, people seem to be very unhappy there at the moment. Of course there is the possibility that I may end up stacking shelves at Tesco, however, assuming i had a choice to make any advice would be appreciated. Would you guys swap BA for say Virgin? Monarch? What are the specific problems at the monment? And also, anyone who is really happy with there lot?
To anyone who replies, thanks for your help, and if anyone feels like PMing me, feel free.
Thanks again for any help/advice
I would be very grateful for a bit of clarification from any BA peeps reading this. I realise that the nature of this forum is for gripes rather than glowing testimonials, however, as someone who may be in a position to join BA in the near future would anyone be able to enlighten me why there are so many bad vibes about the company at the moment? If you had a choice from other airlines who were offering you positions (Virgin/Monarch) would you prefer them to BA?
I shortly will be in position to decide which airline to work for (if any have me!) after my time flying in the military. I had always percieved BA to be one of the favourites, however, people seem to be very unhappy there at the moment. Of course there is the possibility that I may end up stacking shelves at Tesco, however, assuming i had a choice to make any advice would be appreciated. Would you guys swap BA for say Virgin? Monarch? What are the specific problems at the monment? And also, anyone who is really happy with there lot?
To anyone who replies, thanks for your help, and if anyone feels like PMing me, feel free.
Thanks again for any help/advice
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Another question for VS guys. I would love to join you some day and although I'm not in a position to apply yet would appreciate some advice. I currently fly heavy turboprops for a regional carrier and am thinking about making a move onto jets.
My question is do VS favour crew from any particular airlines or rated on any particular aircraft (excluding the obvious A340/B747) or is it simply an Airbus or Boeing rating. I know they have gone as small as the BAe146 in the past, but that might just be a four engine issue. Does size matter
It may seem trivial at this time but these decisions can affect your future.
My question is do VS favour crew from any particular airlines or rated on any particular aircraft (excluding the obvious A340/B747) or is it simply an Airbus or Boeing rating. I know they have gone as small as the BAe146 in the past, but that might just be a four engine issue. Does size matter
It may seem trivial at this time but these decisions can affect your future.
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Size matters in that Virgin prefers you to have 'commercial jet' time:
As you say, A340 or B744 time is ideal, but many Virgin recruits don't have such types on their licence. Many of our guys are from the B737/A320, and there are a few from the military and other less common backgrounds. I can't think of anyone who's recently joined with 'only' BAe146/RJ experience, but I won't hold myself hostage to fortune by saying categorically that it hasn't happened!
Basically, the core VS applicant has around 4000 or more hours, with 2500 or more on jets of B737 size or larger. There are exceptions, but they needed an extra dose of luck!
Scroggs
Originally Posted by Virgin website
We are currently recruiting and ask that prospective candidates have a minimum of 2500 hours total time - if coming from a commercial background this should also include at least 1500 hours commercial jet experience.
Basically, the core VS applicant has around 4000 or more hours, with 2500 or more on jets of B737 size or larger. There are exceptions, but they needed an extra dose of luck!
Scroggs
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Is it likely that having the minimum requirements as specified on the VS website, will get you an interview with VS? Or do you need in the region of 4000hrs TT to get an interview?
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Just wondering...
Hi Scroggs!
I was wondering if one has 4000h total time on 737/320, has applied online and since then hasn“t heard anything from VS (applied in dec 05) if one should just go ahead and apply again online? Possibly the first one was lost in the wide world of bits and bites...
Is VS right now actually looking for pilots?
Thanks a lot for your help!
Cheers
sundanser
I was wondering if one has 4000h total time on 737/320, has applied online and since then hasn“t heard anything from VS (applied in dec 05) if one should just go ahead and apply again online? Possibly the first one was lost in the wide world of bits and bites...
Is VS right now actually looking for pilots?
Thanks a lot for your help!
Cheers
sundanser
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I'd say yes and yes. Last I heard, our requirement for new pilots is roughly similar to last year (about 140). I'm not sure how intelligent the software for the online application is; it may recognise you and refuse you a second go, in which case I'd write a letter or e-mail Janine to confirm whether or not she has your details.
Just to put things in perspective, though, for those 140 pilots the company probably interviewed something over 500 well-qualified people, and had applications from many, many more. There are many perfectly good people who won't get an interview, as luck will always play a part.
Just to put things in perspective, though, for those 140 pilots the company probably interviewed something over 500 well-qualified people, and had applications from many, many more. There are many perfectly good people who won't get an interview, as luck will always play a part.
Scroggs..regarding T & C's Im doing a quick comparison (guess where I work..
)
A couple of quick questions.
Are you aware of any plans to introduce a lower scale for new joiners?
Can you confirm that VS guys contracts are based on 750hrs per year?..and if so is overtime paid if you go up to 900?
Lastly, is it true that the allowances are based on the local cost of living? i.e. Cuba accrues less allowances than HK.
Thanks in advance
)A couple of quick questions.
Are you aware of any plans to introduce a lower scale for new joiners?
Can you confirm that VS guys contracts are based on 750hrs per year?..and if so is overtime paid if you go up to 900?
Lastly, is it true that the allowances are based on the local cost of living? i.e. Cuba accrues less allowances than HK.
Thanks in advance
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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BA.
No significant changes except we're now even shorter of pilots. Much Force Drafting going on at the moment. For those who don't speak BA, that's being forced to go in on a day off, with a disciplinary if you refuse.
777 now doing more long-range, three-crew trips (mainly to India) and fewer to the Eastern seaboard. 747 pretty much the same as it was. 767 picking up more Eastern seaboard.
Oh yes, and they're still trying to steal our pensions - but that's for another thread.
No significant changes except we're now even shorter of pilots. Much Force Drafting going on at the moment. For those who don't speak BA, that's being forced to go in on a day off, with a disciplinary if you refuse.
777 now doing more long-range, three-crew trips (mainly to India) and fewer to the Eastern seaboard. 747 pretty much the same as it was. 767 picking up more Eastern seaboard.
Oh yes, and they're still trying to steal our pensions - but that's for another thread.
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Monarch Man - I think Scroggs might actually be working for a change, so I'll give him a hand and answer your questions.
1) No, absolutely no such plans whatsoever.
2) Yes. We're a 750 hour airline, anything over 760 hours is voluntary and would attract overtime pay - unless you get there by swopping trips.
3) Not quite. Allowances are based on the cost of living in the hotel - ie it's assumed that you eat all your meals in the hotel, and the allowance is structured accordingly. So the allowances in an expensive hotel in a cesspool destination might be more than those in an average hotel in a nice destination. (Hope that makes sense!)
Hope that helps.
t
so I'll give him a hand and answer your questions.1) No, absolutely no such plans whatsoever.
2) Yes. We're a 750 hour airline, anything over 760 hours is voluntary and would attract overtime pay - unless you get there by swopping trips.
3) Not quite. Allowances are based on the cost of living in the hotel - ie it's assumed that you eat all your meals in the hotel, and the allowance is structured accordingly. So the allowances in an expensive hotel in a cesspool destination might be more than those in an average hotel in a nice destination. (Hope that makes sense!)
Hope that helps.
t
