BA DEP rumour

[Northern Highflyer]

Just a few questions on the pension side of things mentioned in these posts if anyone is able to answer them.

As I understand it, the final salary scheme is not used by many airlines these days, so what scheme do these companies have in place for their pilots ?

Are these alternatives so much worse then the final salary system that just by introducing this, the applications for BA would increase ?

Am I right in thinking that the reason the final salary scheme is being dropped is that it is expensive from the employers point of view ?

NHF

[ChocksAwayUK]

And while someone's answering Northern's questions could they explain what justbelowcap meant when he refered to final salary pension as at 56ths or 52nds. Does this mean you get this % of your final salary as pension?

[Re-Heat]

Ironically, a defined contribution (money-purchase or DC) vs a defined benefit scheme (final salary or DB) are fairly similar in costs to the company. It is perhaps the certainty to the company of payments under DC, combined with the introduction of accounting standard FRS17 that have prompted the move from DB schemes rather than the long-run cost.

For DB, since the benefits to be paid are dependent on future events, such as the average or final pay of the employee and the remaining lifetime of pensioner members of the scheme. The impossibility of predicting perfectly the pensions, benefits and investment returns on contributions means that the pension cost ultimately attributable to each financial year can only be fully determined when the scheme is being wound up. In the meantime, it has to be assessed by actuarial calculation (every 3 years).

So move to DC and reduce actuarial costs and move risk to the employees. Further, FRS 17 makes radical changes in respect of accounting for defined benefit schemes, leading to increased volatility in the balance sheet as actuarial gains and losses are recognised immediately and scheme assets are valued at fair values. Previously when the pension's investments moved about, the gains and losses (being paper losses or profits until the investments are sold) were not recognised like this, and the scheme was left to recover in the next rise in the markets.

Basically the accounting industry wanted transparency on the unrealised losses, but have ended up screwing us lot who are yet to enter our aviation job for life, simply because market downturns will eliminate profits and gains on a company's P&L or STRGL respectively, as the 5-years for which the gains or losses are recognised may be too short in longer downturns such as now.

The new and old accounting rules may produce different, and possibly very different, results. Such differences will arise because the bases used are different, and also in some cases because the valuations will have been carried out at different dates.

Unfortunately it will now mean that dependent upon the point at which we retire, our benefits may be better than under a DB, or worse, wherever the market and annuity rates stand.

That is an accounting viewpoint - I cannot tell from a pensions industry viewpoint any further reasons for the changes unfortunately!

[fruitbat]

The 13 757's that BA operate on SH are expected, in todays plan, to stay until 2008 at least. This of course means that the 321's are in addition to this, hence the need for plenty of new blood. Some of the 319's at LHR are planned to move to LGW at some point so it could be the 737 which sees the reduction.

Retirements do slow down drastically in the next couple of years and if the retirement age goes up to 60 in 2006 things could stagnate again. This opportunity could be relatively short term, when the advert comes out and you fancy a go, don't hang around! Good luck

[Justbelowcap]

It's important to note that BA HASN'T yet withdrawn the FSS scheme for new joiners. It has yet to approach BALPA officially and as we work under a collective bargaining agreement BA cannot change the T&C's without consulting the union. It has removed it from other staff groups to little protest. However BALPA have stated in black and white that IF a FSS is not offered to new entrants then we will immediately ballot for strike action.

For those that don't know a FSS scheme is where your pension is worked out by dividing your length of service in the company by the acc. rate, the resulting number is the ratio of your final salary that you get as a pension. The (standard) acc rate at the moment is 52 (although you can opt for 45 or 48 for a price). This may well change to 56 to take the pressure off the company.

However if your motivation for joining BA is the pension then you probably aren't the type the company is looking for, personally I wouldn't put it down as one of my questions in the interview!

(Off thread for a moment... the BA cadet scheme has produced some of the finest aviators I have ever had the pleasure to fly with, the consistancy of the product is also staggering. It is a huge loss to UK aviation that this scheme is no longer in place. That is not to say that I haven't flown with some excellent pilots who have come from the hard world of self improving, or been amazed by the skills of some of HRH's finest fast jet jocks but it is humbling indeed to sit next to a guy who operates to the highest standard to find that he has less than 500 hours. I can't sing their praises high enough. Silver spoon or no silver spoon it produces the right sort and I hope the scheme comes back in some form fairly soon)

[Airbus Girl]

mrsmaryhinge

"For a 3 year old FO, the take home on a short haul fleet is anything from £2600-£3200 for a full month"

I know BA Cadets seem to be getting younger and younger, but are they really taking 3 year old FOs now?????!!!!!!!

[expedite_climb]

mrsmaryhinge,

And presumabley you example is a 3 year CEP, not a DEP ??

[zzz]

For your info,

current DEP starting pay is £40,500 basic. In addition to this you will earn £8 per hour flying pay, based on block time and £2.50 (ish) per hour for every hour you are away from base. There are a couple of extra small payments for sundry expenses. What this means in reality is; expect approx 700 -800 flying hours per year, ie £5600- £ 6400 in flight pay and probably about the same amount for being away from base. Gross pay will be, give or take, £50-52,000. Net pay? About 3 to 3.3 grand.

Best of luck

zzz

[mrsmaryhinge]

Yes sorry, I should have clarified - that is CEP pay. DEP is different altogether and I'm not too sure of the exact details.

An average take home for me is £2800-2900, but that is because I go for maximum time off and minimun sectors (ie/ I avoid work at all costs!). If you are keen you can get more that this. Variable pay is £8 per block hour (fully taxable), and £2.50 per hour time away from base (taxed at a much lower rate). Hence the workers who do 4-5 day trips will take home more.

Hope this helps. Right back into the sun - who wants to work on a weekend like this!!

Mary

[expedite_climb]

If anyone wants to know the real pay scales then join BALPA - they are all on the members area of the site!

Does that count as advertising ?

[Toilet_Town]

From FI 27April-3 May;

148 retiring + 30 more leaving for other reasons.

Can any one expand on why the 30 people are leaving? Are they going to other carriers? Emirates? etc

Thanks

[Airloader]

Hi ya all type rated pilots,
You may want to checkout the latest on BA recruitment. DEPs can now make online applications if they are 747 or A320 type rated. (http://www.britishairwaysjobs.co.uk/)
Enjoy.

[wobblyprop]

Airbus A320 series type rating with a Frozen ATPL and a minimum of either 100 sectors or 400 hours recent experience on type.

They're starting low, compared to the original rumor.

[expedite_climb]

wobblyprop,

Thats what i thought - although BA wanting type ratings as a pre-requisite for DEP entry. Seems even they have gone the way of the rest of the industry. :-(

[Groover]

Great news,

Is there any way off applying without having one of the type-ratings required. I have 75/76 experience and I want to get my application in just in case they start looking outside the box ?

Thanks

[Tandemrotor]

Groover

No sweat, once the GSS 'mexicans' (ignore the name calling - They WOULD like to join!) get their applications in, BA are going to be staggered at how few people actually want to join this outfit!

(Incidentally, I imagine some mainline secondees to GSS could be on the interview panels! - Wonder if there'll be any more talk of ostracising secondees downroute?)

Fill your boots!

Try to find out a little bit more about life at the bottom of a bidline fleet first though!

[NigelOnDraft]

Is there any way off applying without having one of the type-ratings required. I have 75/76 experience and I want to get my application in just in case they start looking outside the box ?

Why not just try, and post the answer here... 757/767 is supposed to be around for some time - they may just bite!

NoD

[Groover]

Thanks Guys

I've tried the online application but it specifically asks the question regarding having a rating on the 320/744/777. Therefore I can't apply using that method , any other method ?anyone got any ideas ?

Thanks

[Boeing 7E7]

Groover,

Just sit tight your time will come. If you read the article in Flight International it mentions the typre rating required is for the first "wave" of recruitment. By implication they may yet want to hear from you...

[PPRuNeUser0215]

You can also mail your interest.... If you click "no" on the type rating, it will confirmed you have failed at this stage but also provide you with an address, should you still wish to apply.