BA DEP rumour
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Don't you have to have EU citizenship to work in the UK?
Is Switzerland part of the EU?
Is Switzerland part of the EU?
For example, you would be unable to work in Italy (an EU member) but you could work in the UK as a Swiss national.
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Since the new pay restructuring life has never been so good for the junior guys. People now just bid for a lifestyle that suits them, those with families want week-ends off, single guys want to be in Helsinki on a saturday night! Lines of work do not vary much in money terms so you just bid for what suits you.
What is the preoccupation with time to command, once you get there the quest is over. Yes the command time in BA is longer than others, but the opportunities are greater too. Fly RHS SH for a while then go and play with the 400 for a few more years. Before you know it your number will be up and you can return to SH to remember how to fly again!
BA will look first to fill the Airbus slots with type rated pilots to fill the new 321 slots. Once all the internal bids to LH have been processed then DEP's will be recruited to the LH fleets.
WWW, I dearly hope your comment about Bin Laden doesn't come back to haunt you my friend, we are all as vulnerable as each other. He could just as well go for the Easy option.
What is the preoccupation with time to command, once you get there the quest is over. Yes the command time in BA is longer than others, but the opportunities are greater too. Fly RHS SH for a while then go and play with the 400 for a few more years. Before you know it your number will be up and you can return to SH to remember how to fly again!
BA will look first to fill the Airbus slots with type rated pilots to fill the new 321 slots. Once all the internal bids to LH have been processed then DEP's will be recruited to the LH fleets.
WWW, I dearly hope your comment about Bin Laden doesn't come back to haunt you my friend, we are all as vulnerable as each other. He could just as well go for the Easy option.
fruitbat - another Bin Laden event would hurt all airlines. My point was merely that being at the bottom of a list is an inhibiting factor in deciding to move employers during these uncertain times - which is what would be involved for DEP recruitment.
No doubt BA will be able to attract plenty of pilots for its ranks.
I just don't think it will be a stampede as it has in the past. Mind you - if they bring back the final salary pension then that would sway a lot of people.
Cheers
WWW
No doubt BA will be able to attract plenty of pilots for its ranks.
I just don't think it will be a stampede as it has in the past. Mind you - if they bring back the final salary pension then that would sway a lot of people.
Cheers
WWW
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With all respect to the low cost carriers apart from a quick command what long term career do they offer. BA can offer a mix of both long and short haul and the abliity to do this on various aircraft types.
What does one do when they get a quick command, say at less than 30 ?
Do you really expect to sit in the LHS for another 25-30 yrs busting a gut flying multi-sector days etc etc
Where and what do you do when you decide to leave the LCC ? Bottom of the seniority list again ?
What does one do when they get a quick command, say at less than 30 ?
Do you really expect to sit in the LHS for another 25-30 yrs busting a gut flying multi-sector days etc etc
Where and what do you do when you decide to leave the LCC ? Bottom of the seniority list again ?
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I agree with JET A1, I mean being RHS is not that bad depending on who you work for.
Personally I do a mixture of Short Haul, Medium and Long Haul (in the winter).
Also we have some ad hoc flights or contracts taking us to Indonesia for two months, Scandinavia for 10 days at a time, New Zealand for 5 months etc...
All on a voluntary basis so for those amongst who rather a stable roster back in the UK, we also have that option.
Of course our time to command until now was very long (up to 15 years) but frankly who cares. I mean a command is a good thing if you want to go elsewhere (or need to) but at the moment I really believe I have a great lifestyle. Much better than I would have in the LCC. As for the money issue, well it is not the most important but then again by volunteering for such and such contract I am not doing badly at all.
BA was a career airline, chances are that is still the case. Don't think there is much there for me but for an LCC pilot, what a pleasant shock it must be to work there.
We are all after different things, we just need to realise what we want and when we have found it.
The way the world goes these days, who knows what can happen? Enjoy life is what I have chosen... and I do.
Personally I do a mixture of Short Haul, Medium and Long Haul (in the winter).
Also we have some ad hoc flights or contracts taking us to Indonesia for two months, Scandinavia for 10 days at a time, New Zealand for 5 months etc...
All on a voluntary basis so for those amongst who rather a stable roster back in the UK, we also have that option.
Of course our time to command until now was very long (up to 15 years) but frankly who cares. I mean a command is a good thing if you want to go elsewhere (or need to) but at the moment I really believe I have a great lifestyle. Much better than I would have in the LCC. As for the money issue, well it is not the most important but then again by volunteering for such and such contract I am not doing badly at all.
BA was a career airline, chances are that is still the case. Don't think there is much there for me but for an LCC pilot, what a pleasant shock it must be to work there.
We are all after different things, we just need to realise what we want and when we have found it.
The way the world goes these days, who knows what can happen? Enjoy life is what I have chosen... and I do.
Whats wrong with 30 years in the LHS of A319/B737 European shorthaul?
Who gives a toss how big your jet is, how many engines its got or how fast it goes. They all look, operate and feel the same.
No desire to fly long or medium haul and spend days in hotels with colleagues. Shorthaul is shorthaul these days. BA EOG are doing as many hours as easyJet. Same stuff - different logo down the side.
Plus who would choose to work out of Heathrow?
Oh, and LoCo's give you the option of working on the continent. Seen what selling your 4 bed detatched in grotty Crawley will buy you 30 minutes South of Paris? Or 30 minutes East of Belfast?
but for an LCC pilot, what a pleasant shock it must be to work there.
Hmmn, lets see. No fixed roster pattern so I don't know what I am doing a month from now. No bidding power. Car park miles from report. Cabin crew earning more than me. No command for the rest of the decade. No command on long haul ever. 840hrs a year. No final salary pension. Top of the list for redundancies if they ever happen. Got to move and live near Gatwick/Heathrow. Pay cut for 5 years. BA politics. Slightly smarter uniform.
Low Cost flying ain't Nirvana but I don't see EOG as being Paradise by a long chalk.
Cheers
WWW
Who gives a toss how big your jet is, how many engines its got or how fast it goes. They all look, operate and feel the same.
No desire to fly long or medium haul and spend days in hotels with colleagues. Shorthaul is shorthaul these days. BA EOG are doing as many hours as easyJet. Same stuff - different logo down the side.
Plus who would choose to work out of Heathrow?
Oh, and LoCo's give you the option of working on the continent. Seen what selling your 4 bed detatched in grotty Crawley will buy you 30 minutes South of Paris? Or 30 minutes East of Belfast?
but for an LCC pilot, what a pleasant shock it must be to work there.
Hmmn, lets see. No fixed roster pattern so I don't know what I am doing a month from now. No bidding power. Car park miles from report. Cabin crew earning more than me. No command for the rest of the decade. No command on long haul ever. 840hrs a year. No final salary pension. Top of the list for redundancies if they ever happen. Got to move and live near Gatwick/Heathrow. Pay cut for 5 years. BA politics. Slightly smarter uniform.
Low Cost flying ain't Nirvana but I don't see EOG as being Paradise by a long chalk.
Cheers
WWW
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Like I said www, it s all about lifestyle and I don't think BA nor Easyjet would be able to give me anything more than I already have.
Having shared a flat with an Easy pilot, I don't really find 6 On 3 Off as an advantage. I mean I work 17 days a month at the most. (How many days at home, a LH BA pilot enjoys every month then?)
Last summer, his roster kept changing and....
Unlike me, he can't live in Nice or enjoy a very stable roster (no change in the past 12 months if it wasn't for a canceled flight with plenty of notice).
Working out for LGW, I have solved the car park prolem. I don't need 30 minutes to get there because of course when you commute, you don't really need a car
.
You also refer to the fact that BA cabin crew would earn more than you. I worked as cabin crew for BA in 1999... My basic was £9666 pa. I suspect You are then certainly refering to the "Old contract" but then you should compare a current BA pilot salary on the old contract too. Things have changed but not only for pilots you see.
"No command on long haul ever". Well obviously not your priority so doesn't really matter.
"No final salary pension" Do you have one at Easyjet ?
I do (for the time being anyway).
Anyway, LCCs being still relatively new, only in 10-15 years will we be able to see if that type of operation really is a career one.
Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't but carriers like BA, Britannia and others have certainly nothing to prove in that area.
Having shared a flat with an Easy pilot, I don't really find 6 On 3 Off as an advantage. I mean I work 17 days a month at the most. (How many days at home, a LH BA pilot enjoys every month then?)
Last summer, his roster kept changing and....
Unlike me, he can't live in Nice or enjoy a very stable roster (no change in the past 12 months if it wasn't for a canceled flight with plenty of notice).
Working out for LGW, I have solved the car park prolem. I don't need 30 minutes to get there because of course when you commute, you don't really need a car
.You also refer to the fact that BA cabin crew would earn more than you. I worked as cabin crew for BA in 1999... My basic was £9666 pa. I suspect You are then certainly refering to the "Old contract" but then you should compare a current BA pilot salary on the old contract too. Things have changed but not only for pilots you see.
"No command on long haul ever". Well obviously not your priority so doesn't really matter.
"No final salary pension" Do you have one at Easyjet ?
I do (for the time being anyway).
Anyway, LCCs being still relatively new, only in 10-15 years will we be able to see if that type of operation really is a career one.
Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't but carriers like BA, Britannia and others have certainly nothing to prove in that area.
Gosh is that really 6 years ago?!? Frightening how time flies.
For most LCC pilots moving to BA shorthaul means a big pay cut, command prospects go back 10 years plus you have to work out of LHR/GWK and endure massive politics. You will be sat on the top of the lay off list instead of the bottom, you'll be expected to fly more than 800hrs a year and there is supposedly no final salary pension scheme.
You'll lose a fixed 5/3 or 6/3 roster for the charms of Carmen + the lowest bid priority.
As always there will be plenty of applicants I am sure. But not - as implied - from the LCAs. I don't know a single FO at work who would dream of applying. More likely perhaps the FO's in GB or BMed who can see the writing on the Franchise Renewal wall..?
Cheers
WWW
For most LCC pilots moving to BA shorthaul means a big pay cut, command prospects go back 10 years plus you have to work out of LHR/GWK and endure massive politics. You will be sat on the top of the lay off list instead of the bottom, you'll be expected to fly more than 800hrs a year and there is supposedly no final salary pension scheme.
You'll lose a fixed 5/3 or 6/3 roster for the charms of Carmen + the lowest bid priority.
As always there will be plenty of applicants I am sure. But not - as implied - from the LCAs. I don't know a single FO at work who would dream of applying. More likely perhaps the FO's in GB or BMed who can see the writing on the Franchise Renewal wall..?
Cheers
WWW
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Stop, stop, stop! This is not the forum to discuss the pros and cons of joining BA as a DEP. If you have, or are likely to have by the time the ad comes out, the hours and experience that BA require, then you shouldn't be in this forum. Terms and Endearments is the place to discuss your points and preconceptions. I will, if necessary, split off your discussion to that forum.
This forum is for those who have never yet held a commercial position, and so the only point of relevence to this thread is what effect BA re-entering the DEP market will have on those carriers who do employ low-houred pilots. Which is the question asked in the first place (at least by mad_jock!).
Discuss....
Scroggs
PS The numbers suggested seem a little unlikely, as BA has not taken delivery of any significant numbers of new aircraft, has few on order, and hasn't lost (nor will lose) that many pilots in the near future. I would have thought, for the moment, that 150 per year would be about the maximum they could absorb from other airlines - if those pilots wanted to go to BA, which is not a given!
Sorry! Back to the topic relevant to Wannabes.....
This forum is for those who have never yet held a commercial position, and so the only point of relevence to this thread is what effect BA re-entering the DEP market will have on those carriers who do employ low-houred pilots. Which is the question asked in the first place (at least by mad_jock!).
Discuss....
Scroggs
PS The numbers suggested seem a little unlikely, as BA has not taken delivery of any significant numbers of new aircraft, has few on order, and hasn't lost (nor will lose) that many pilots in the near future. I would have thought, for the moment, that 150 per year would be about the maximum they could absorb from other airlines - if those pilots wanted to go to BA, which is not a given!
Sorry! Back to the topic relevant to Wannabes.....
Last edited by scroggs; 16th Apr 2004 at 17:40.
True, slap myself on the wrist. But it is interesting for Wannabes to learn something of the politics of employment in the UK. With so much focus on the first job - any job - rarely do discussions reach beyond to encompass whole careers.
Cheers
WWW
Cheers
WWW
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WWW you're right, of course; topics about the wider implications of BA recruiting are both relevant and interesting, but the discussion was getting on to things of specific interest only to those who might apply to any DEP scheme - and it's that bit I want to put a halt to, or at least subdue. Oh sod it, let's go for it..... 
So, on that note - Justbelowcap, I'd assumed that these A321s are 757 replacements. Is that in fact the case, or are they additional to the fleet? If they are additional, obviously that will have a significant effect on BA's recruiting requirements (by the way, what is BA's shorthaul crew/aircraft ratio?). If they are replacements for 757s (and 767s?), there will be no net requirement for crews.
As for retirements, 100-150 per year is what I'd heard from other sources, and is consistent with the size and age of BA's pilot workforce. There may be a change in or around 2006 with forthcoming employment legislation intended to allow later retirement, but the effect of that legislation on existing contracts, particularly pensionable ones, isn't yet clear (to me, at least!).
As for the sources of BA's DEPs, I imagine that a significant proportion will be ex-military, as is traditional - though the numbers perforce will be less than in the past. There is little to tempt Virgin pilots to BA. Emirates might produce a few disaffected by the current direct-entry command scheme, and BMI will probably provide quite a few who are terminally disaffected with that airline's recent management style. The British charter scene may yield some, but most of their pilots seem pretty happy with their lot, and would not relish shorthaul scheduled flying with any airline. EZ and Ryan are obvious targets - particularly the ex-mil guys with a few years and a few thousand hours of civvy flying under their belts but, as WWW says, BA's T's & C's are no longer as unassailable as they once were - and Virgin offers a longer career, guaranteed longhaul, and nearly as much salary (though the pension and allowances are nowhere near as good).
So, I reckon BA will have no trouble finding 100+ a year, but 3-400 DEPs (should that number ever be required)? Not from UK......
Scroggs
So, on that note - Justbelowcap, I'd assumed that these A321s are 757 replacements. Is that in fact the case, or are they additional to the fleet? If they are additional, obviously that will have a significant effect on BA's recruiting requirements (by the way, what is BA's shorthaul crew/aircraft ratio?). If they are replacements for 757s (and 767s?), there will be no net requirement for crews.
As for retirements, 100-150 per year is what I'd heard from other sources, and is consistent with the size and age of BA's pilot workforce. There may be a change in or around 2006 with forthcoming employment legislation intended to allow later retirement, but the effect of that legislation on existing contracts, particularly pensionable ones, isn't yet clear (to me, at least!).
As for the sources of BA's DEPs, I imagine that a significant proportion will be ex-military, as is traditional - though the numbers perforce will be less than in the past. There is little to tempt Virgin pilots to BA. Emirates might produce a few disaffected by the current direct-entry command scheme, and BMI will probably provide quite a few who are terminally disaffected with that airline's recent management style. The British charter scene may yield some, but most of their pilots seem pretty happy with their lot, and would not relish shorthaul scheduled flying with any airline. EZ and Ryan are obvious targets - particularly the ex-mil guys with a few years and a few thousand hours of civvy flying under their belts but, as WWW says, BA's T's & C's are no longer as unassailable as they once were - and Virgin offers a longer career, guaranteed longhaul, and nearly as much salary (though the pension and allowances are nowhere near as good).
So, I reckon BA will have no trouble finding 100+ a year, but 3-400 DEPs (should that number ever be required)? Not from UK......
Scroggs
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Well given that the consensus seems to be, that the lion's share of the recruitment will be to the 777 and 744 fleets, do you really think they'll get anywhere near enough type rated applicants (apart from maybe a few disillusioned EK people)?
And if not, how do you think they'll handle the 'type rated' requirement ... is it worth it for turboprop drivers to throw down a CV?
And if not, how do you think they'll handle the 'type rated' requirement ... is it worth it for turboprop drivers to throw down a CV?
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WWW, DEP's coming into BA would not have to "endure Carmen" as they would be flying long haul under bid line rules.
Incidentally, Carmen is only in force at LGW on the short haul fleet, and it is being replaced in September with Heathrow's bid line. Just thought you'd like to know.
WWW
Sorry to go on a bit, but where did you get the 840 hours a year from?!! BA's scheduling agreement puts the community maximum at 770 hours.
And you will probably find that spending days down route with your colleagues would appeal to the vast majority of wannabes!
Incidentally, Carmen is only in force at LGW on the short haul fleet, and it is being replaced in September with Heathrow's bid line. Just thought you'd like to know.
WWW
Sorry to go on a bit, but where did you get the 840 hours a year from?!! BA's scheduling agreement puts the community maximum at 770 hours.
And you will probably find that spending days down route with your colleagues would appeal to the vast majority of wannabes!
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As always ill informed debate and comment on both BA recruitment and what its like to work at both LHR and LGW, most of it coming from WWW, who has been pontificating on various companies recruitment and T & Cs (or lack of them) mostly inaccurately since I stumbled on this forum in 1998. WWW I realise your happy with your lot in orange land, but there are always going to be people who are not. Your point of view reference BA is like a stuck record, to be played over and over again.
The good news is that this does seem more than a rumour; an internal advert has been posted for Pilot recruiters. The numbers appear to be circa 90-110 candidates to be placed on the airbus at LHR/LGW and the 777.A mole tell me there will be little or no recruitment onto the 747 since the company can fill these positions from valid bidders internally. I think to save money those with the relevant type ratings will have an advantage. As has been discussed at great length the company may struggle in this respect with the 777
Sundance, as you can tell I share your view with WWWs internal looking fogged up sunglasses.
The good news is that this does seem more than a rumour; an internal advert has been posted for Pilot recruiters. The numbers appear to be circa 90-110 candidates to be placed on the airbus at LHR/LGW and the 777.A mole tell me there will be little or no recruitment onto the 747 since the company can fill these positions from valid bidders internally. I think to save money those with the relevant type ratings will have an advantage. As has been discussed at great length the company may struggle in this respect with the 777
Sundance, as you can tell I share your view with WWWs internal looking fogged up sunglasses.
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For most LCC pilots moving to BA shorthaul means a big pay cut, command prospects go back 10 years plus you have to work out of LHR/GWK and endure massive politics. You will be sat on the top of the lay off list instead of the bottom, you'll be expected to fly more than 800hrs a year and there is supposedly no final salary pension scheme.
Big pay cut - how does that compare with the overall value of the package (pension, travel, benefits)? Hasn't stopped loads of guys leaving to go to VS/EK.
Command prospects go back 10yrs - Bus conversions, contract pilots, huge numbers of new F/O's - their not exactly getting better at EZY neither.
Work out of LGW and endure massive politics - Hello?
Top of the layoff list - well, in the LCCs we ALL are.
Fly more than 800hrs a year - a) rubbish; b) Hello?
No final salary pension scheme - you guessed it - Hello?
If BA's doors are opened you'll be choking on dust.
I think from the wannabe's POV expansion among the majors is the best news to happen since 9/11. People ARE going to leave the LCC's, the LCCs ARE going to need new people to replace losses and crew their expansion, and they ARE NOT going to do it with CTC cadets. Opportunities will trickle down to the regionals and spaces will be created at the bottom of the wannabe food chain.
Let the good times roll!