European Aviation Problems (Merged)
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Crewing Doctor
It's time to remove the rose-tinted spectacles.
The company has debts of many millions of pounds.
It benefits the few remaining employees if it soldiers on for a short time more but there is every risk that one of the creditors like a handling agent, airport or fuel company will try to shut the company down. We have no control over that.
Instead of trying to battle on under this CVA agreement they would be better going for formal administration. The company then has protection from its creditors who cannot shut it down by calling in the debts owed. The staff who have been laid off will be clearly and undisputably entitled to redundancy and back-pay claims. At the moment their entitlements and rights are less than clear.
If an administrator is appointed to run the company's affairs then they will be able to decide if there is a viable business going forwards. If they decide that there is a viable business then those who are still employed will have greater certainty by having a job and the knowledge that a handling agent or fuel company can't pop up at a moment's notice to try to shut the company down and put them out of work.
If an administrator concludes there is no hope of it trading profitably then surely we would all be better served by stopping this charade now.
I don't care what you say - the present situation benefits PGS and PGS only. By putting the business into administration he would recognise that his shareholding is worthless and he is not prepared to do that. By continuing as we are - under this airy fairy CVA with no protection from creditors - he is risking being able to salvage nothing from the sorry mess because any creditor could try to have the company shut down. He is relying on the fact that no-one will try it to scrape through. That's a hell of a bet. If you're lucky enough to be one of the few still there then it's great for as long as it lasts. I just don't know how long it will or can actually last. I would be pissed off if my future was being betted on the pure goodwill of the creditors when there was another option. Many of them are rather pissed off right now and you just don't know what they are going to do about it.
It's time to remove the rose-tinted spectacles.
The company has debts of many millions of pounds.
It benefits the few remaining employees if it soldiers on for a short time more but there is every risk that one of the creditors like a handling agent, airport or fuel company will try to shut the company down. We have no control over that.
Instead of trying to battle on under this CVA agreement they would be better going for formal administration. The company then has protection from its creditors who cannot shut it down by calling in the debts owed. The staff who have been laid off will be clearly and undisputably entitled to redundancy and back-pay claims. At the moment their entitlements and rights are less than clear.
If an administrator is appointed to run the company's affairs then they will be able to decide if there is a viable business going forwards. If they decide that there is a viable business then those who are still employed will have greater certainty by having a job and the knowledge that a handling agent or fuel company can't pop up at a moment's notice to try to shut the company down and put them out of work.
If an administrator concludes there is no hope of it trading profitably then surely we would all be better served by stopping this charade now.
I don't care what you say - the present situation benefits PGS and PGS only. By putting the business into administration he would recognise that his shareholding is worthless and he is not prepared to do that. By continuing as we are - under this airy fairy CVA with no protection from creditors - he is risking being able to salvage nothing from the sorry mess because any creditor could try to have the company shut down. He is relying on the fact that no-one will try it to scrape through. That's a hell of a bet. If you're lucky enough to be one of the few still there then it's great for as long as it lasts. I just don't know how long it will or can actually last. I would be pissed off if my future was being betted on the pure goodwill of the creditors when there was another option. Many of them are rather pissed off right now and you just don't know what they are going to do about it.
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Crewing Doctor
As somebody who has never worked for European I can see your points very clearly. 747 crews are large and positioning costs are also large. Unfortunately European were forced to employ the type of "elite" aircrew who demanded business class travel which no doubt pushed the debt up nicely. Mismanagement also helped and probably a bit of dodgy dealing. These things always have more than one cause. I read earlier about corner cutting with technical problems. If this was so widespread why so many (and long) tech delays?
Fact - all airlines use a sharp pencil if they need to, some more than others.
Fact - if you can find a way to operate with a tech problem (legally) when to fix it means a long delay, passenger welfare, knock-on effects etc most airlines will choose to operate. Simple economics and of course bad publicity not to.
Fact - CVAs exist so somebody must use them and presumably benefit from them. If this one works 100+ people currently still employed will benefit and maybe more later as more staff are taken on. Surely better to have a company operating than not.
Must have a word with the job centre and reserve basil his nice elite place at the front of the queue, looks like he deserves it.
As somebody who has never worked for European I can see your points very clearly. 747 crews are large and positioning costs are also large. Unfortunately European were forced to employ the type of "elite" aircrew who demanded business class travel which no doubt pushed the debt up nicely. Mismanagement also helped and probably a bit of dodgy dealing. These things always have more than one cause. I read earlier about corner cutting with technical problems. If this was so widespread why so many (and long) tech delays?
Fact - all airlines use a sharp pencil if they need to, some more than others.
Fact - if you can find a way to operate with a tech problem (legally) when to fix it means a long delay, passenger welfare, knock-on effects etc most airlines will choose to operate. Simple economics and of course bad publicity not to.
Fact - CVAs exist so somebody must use them and presumably benefit from them. If this one works 100+ people currently still employed will benefit and maybe more later as more staff are taken on. Surely better to have a company operating than not.
Must have a word with the job centre and reserve basil his nice elite place at the front of the queue, looks like he deserves it.
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MONEY MONEY
My 3 shekels worth
Ref j/c class travel for pos crew
If flying for another carrierr, they would be responsible for the cost of positioning crew
If the crew concerned had bad backs, were they medically fit to operate to start with...
Ref j/c class travel for pos crew
If flying for another carrierr, they would be responsible for the cost of positioning crew
If the crew concerned had bad backs, were they medically fit to operate to start with...
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Creditors meeting
Hotel Du Vin, Birmingham, April 7th. I believe something is in the post from Moores Stephens. All staff ( creditors ) cordially invited.
Of course in the hangar in front of a fair number of people Mr Stoddart did promise to pay everyone what they were owed.
Where's the hotel fax machine?
Of course in the hangar in front of a fair number of people Mr Stoddart did promise to pay everyone what they were owed.
Where's the hotel fax machine?
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Harrier 46, as I understand it, due to certain restrictions by the CAA, if 'elite' aircrew hadn't been used on the 747, there would have been no operation at all a little class envy is it?
Secondly if business class travel for 3 aircrew brought the company to its knees, then perhaps it shouldn't have been operating anyway........
Secondly if business class travel for 3 aircrew brought the company to its knees, then perhaps it shouldn't have been operating anyway........
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In the contract
Not to mention the fact that business class on flights longer than 6 hours, was actually written in our contracts; just like 8 days off a month, paid holidays, and probably the lowest wide-body salaries in the UK.
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From the horse's mouth
Anybody else hear Paul Stoddart interviewed on Radio 4 last evening? He spoke of 'returning to the core business of the airline' and 'using Boeing 737 aircraft from Bournemouth and Manchester'. There was no mention of any longhaul routes on the B747. Sorry to disappoint those hoping for anything more than a temporary reprieve.
Yotter
Yotter
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If thats all they are offering my guess is The Inland Revenue and VAT will put the company into receivership. They then get 100% in front of everybody else.
BA I believe is a substantial creditor as well, dont expect any mercy from that quarter Mr. Stoddard.
At least the staff will get some redundancy payments then.
The chances of EAAC flying in 3 months time look pretty slim.
BA I believe is a substantial creditor as well, dont expect any mercy from that quarter Mr. Stoddard.
At least the staff will get some redundancy payments then.
The chances of EAAC flying in 3 months time look pretty slim.
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One thing I forgot to mention earlier.
For those who are owed money a website that will explain what Mr. Stoddard is trying to do (ie CVA) is :-
http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/informa...ets/guides.htm
and go to the files on:-
1. "A Guide for Creditors"
2. "A Guide for Directors" (information on the CVA procedure here)
3. "Redundancy and Insolvency - A Guide for Employees"
The meeting I see is in BHX probably to make sure most don't turn up, to give him a free rein.
Remember he needs 75% of those entitled to vote to proceed with the CVA, otherwise receivership is the only alternative, and to be entitled to vote you must be present.
To Vote, remember you MUST register a claim in writing beforehand, with the nominee / administrator, otherwise it will be a wasted journey, you will not get a say.
Whatever is decided at that meeting will bind all the creditors, so I think it is important to register, attend, and vote.
But I suppose he has told you all that.
For those who are owed money a website that will explain what Mr. Stoddard is trying to do (ie CVA) is :-
http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/informa...ets/guides.htm
and go to the files on:-
1. "A Guide for Creditors"
2. "A Guide for Directors" (information on the CVA procedure here)
3. "Redundancy and Insolvency - A Guide for Employees"
The meeting I see is in BHX probably to make sure most don't turn up, to give him a free rein.
Remember he needs 75% of those entitled to vote to proceed with the CVA, otherwise receivership is the only alternative, and to be entitled to vote you must be present.
To Vote, remember you MUST register a claim in writing beforehand, with the nominee / administrator, otherwise it will be a wasted journey, you will not get a say.
Whatever is decided at that meeting will bind all the creditors, so I think it is important to register, attend, and vote.
But I suppose he has told you all that.
Last edited by WhoopWhoop Whoops; 25th Mar 2004 at 14:34.
They were good days!!
Just found this thread and wish to say that I flew for EAC on the BAC 1-11 for nearly 3 years. I am sorry to hear of the demise of the company. I had a very enjoyable time flying for them, with some really great people - and REALLY great room parties!!!
Although I haven't read the whole thread (so pardon if it has already been said) I was surprised when EAC bought Jumbos. They would have been much better to have stuck to the formula that was winning - ad-hoc and charter S/H operations.
Although I haven't read the whole thread (so pardon if it has already been said) I was surprised when EAC bought Jumbos. They would have been much better to have stuck to the formula that was winning - ad-hoc and charter S/H operations.
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Whoops ... i did it again !
Dear WhoopWhoop Whoops
Yes he has.
Thank you very much for your informative link that you provided, but NO Thanks for the
that comes along with your posts !!!
You know I often wonder what it must be like, to bad mouth certain people and companies without a full comprehension of the situation.
But then again i have a life ...
Regards
A Fan Of EAAC
Yes he has.
Thank you very much for your informative link that you provided, but NO Thanks for the
that comes along with your posts !!!You know I often wonder what it must be like, to bad mouth certain people and companies without a full comprehension of the situation.
But then again i have a life ...
Regards
A Fan Of EAAC
For info the contract being offered by AA is crap.
They wave an EU compliant contract at you but actually offer their international rubbish.
Must think we've never seen 'bait & switch' before
LGW Vulture,
EAAC does not own the B747s. They're assets of European Skybus Ltd of which Stoddart is a director and which is owed £19.1M by EAAC.
WWW,
I don't believe he did but the info came in the Moore Stephens Corporate Recovery package.
They wave an EU compliant contract at you but actually offer their international rubbish.
Must think we've never seen 'bait & switch' before
LGW Vulture,
EAAC does not own the B747s. They're assets of European Skybus Ltd of which Stoddart is a director and which is owed £19.1M by EAAC.
WWW,
I don't believe he did but the info came in the Moore Stephens Corporate Recovery package.
Last edited by Basil; 26th Mar 2004 at 10:37.