Am I wrong about all this? Please help!
Guest
Posts: n/a
READY - I don't think Tony knows his aeroplane better than the captain on that day, nothing here to suggest he does, is there?
411A has made good points, a salutary experience for Tony, benfit from it and move on, like we all did, before PPRuNe!!!
411A has made good points, a salutary experience for Tony, benfit from it and move on, like we all did, before PPRuNe!!!
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Around the World
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear Tony,
I have to agree with "Thoroughly Nice Bloke". By far one of the best topics since some time. Not one of these tiring neverending-wannabe-Boeing-against-Airbus threads... I think it is great, that you express so frankly your concerns here in public. But it makes we wondering on the other hand, why you can't be the same way with your Partners in the Cockpit? I am flying also here in Asia and I do understand that sometimes there is a huge authority gap between Captains and FO's.
But nevertheless I think you would have been far better off to take your heart, call your Captain after the flight in his hotel room, and ask him out for some beers and dicuss very frankly with him, what bugged you during that flight. It gives you the chance to get to know each other better and at the end of the day, you both probably learn from each other.
Maybe a bit idealistic, but I sincerely believe, that it helps you a lot during the flight, if you know your partners well. Sometimes a bit difficult to achieve, especially in bigger companies, I know.
Anyway both thumbs up for you, to bring this thing up here. Personally I believe, it would be great to have an own CRM forum, where more things like that could be discussed in a professional manner. . . <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
I have to agree with "Thoroughly Nice Bloke". By far one of the best topics since some time. Not one of these tiring neverending-wannabe-Boeing-against-Airbus threads... I think it is great, that you express so frankly your concerns here in public. But it makes we wondering on the other hand, why you can't be the same way with your Partners in the Cockpit? I am flying also here in Asia and I do understand that sometimes there is a huge authority gap between Captains and FO's.
But nevertheless I think you would have been far better off to take your heart, call your Captain after the flight in his hotel room, and ask him out for some beers and dicuss very frankly with him, what bugged you during that flight. It gives you the chance to get to know each other better and at the end of the day, you both probably learn from each other.
Maybe a bit idealistic, but I sincerely believe, that it helps you a lot during the flight, if you know your partners well. Sometimes a bit difficult to achieve, especially in bigger companies, I know.
Anyway both thumbs up for you, to bring this thing up here. Personally I believe, it would be great to have an own CRM forum, where more things like that could be discussed in a professional manner. . . <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Around & About
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A Tony has no obligation to answer to any one on this forum, including your exalted self. Anyway, if you had your way he'd be answering to his chief pilot right now!. .Tinkering with CI can alter max altitude, so can altering the ceiling rate of climb, which is pretty obvious. Neither of these methods compromise safety margins built in by the manufacturer or operator (unless you reduce CRoC). Messing with the C of G and buffet margins does. If the chief pilot of Tony's airline didn't probe the captain in detail with regard to his actions then he needs HIS arse kicked or the regulators called in.. .Asking for weights and launch C of G etc so we can all run off to our B747-400 manuals is pointless. If the aircraft was comfortably inside the envelope Tony wouldn't have made his post. It wasn't & he did, simple really.. .As someone said before; sticking a large aircraft with 400 trusting souls on board on the margins of the envelope simply isn't clever. What we think is probably less relevant than what the guy trying to get some sleep in 54G thinks. Because when I'M that guy I know what I think.. . <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually...I think Tony is a young (perhaps well meaning) guy that had his "pride" wounded by the boss (read Commander)...and now is looking for a little support. What he SHOULD have done is have a talk with "the boss"...and he might well actually learn something.. .Some of the younger guys/gals might actually be surprised...to find out that the "older guys" really DO know the facts.. .So Tony....what are the parameters of the flight?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just came back from a long trip.
I'm really surprised to have receive so many replies(not to mention personal emails) when I started my first posting.
I appreciate all the replies. But either my first posting was just too detailed, that people are getting mixed up, or that there ARE people who think differently.
The whole point was:
1) Can we change CG based on 'experience'?. .2) Can we accept FLs when you have no idea what's the max is and without checking? And even when the young and dumb sitting right next to you, pointing out the max is currently not that high?. .3) During normal operations, is it really that necessary to fly within the buffet yellow line?
After viewing all the postings here, I guess some of you will still give an 'yes' to all or some of the above. And I will not be surprised anymore.
There're some questions that I cannot answer, such as other detail numbers which some of you are asking. Because I wasn't even thinking about submitting any report when it all happend. I only put down some information for myself as reference, until what happend the next day.
But all the numbers I gave, was accurate. I can't remember all the others since I didn't have them written down, and I don't want to 'guess' them now.
Anyway, I've learned my lesson, and I've received alot of support from you guys, thank you all.
But please dont' get me wrong, I'm not here asking for people to stand by my side, but rather, intellect advices/comments. And most of you, have been very helpful indeed.
It's got nothing to do with pride, trouble-making, or anti-authority. It's simply basic safety concept, which I disagree and failing to understand.
Writting a report, mabe it was a bad idea. But I was really in a dilemma.
2 years ago, I didn't write a report on a captain after an incident, and I almost got into big trouble. And this time, people are warning of FODAS.
You see, our company are using FODAS to give pilots a hard time. Yes, you've all heard it right. FODAS are being recorded into your personal records, which will definately effect your merit and your upgrade.
I have to admit that it wasn't the only reason for me to have submitted the report, but it sure was one of the reason.
Mabe it all sounds pretty selfish to you, and I have to say, 'yes, I've made the report partly because I didn't want to get into another trouble like I had 2 years ago'. But still, I'd rather fly with someone who always keep on the safe side in their minds, but accidentaly made a pretty firm landing.
Anyway..
I know I've said it a lot, but I must say it again, that I thank you all for your postings, either who supported me, or those who jumps right in and start query my credentials. You've all been helpful.
Any further postings will not be replied, it's not a hit and run, but I think I've gathered enough information for now, not to get deeper in this(Since I know how they treated my report), but something enough for me to think for a long time... my CRM skills.
Thank you.
Tony Ko
I'm really surprised to have receive so many replies(not to mention personal emails) when I started my first posting.
I appreciate all the replies. But either my first posting was just too detailed, that people are getting mixed up, or that there ARE people who think differently.
The whole point was:
1) Can we change CG based on 'experience'?. .2) Can we accept FLs when you have no idea what's the max is and without checking? And even when the young and dumb sitting right next to you, pointing out the max is currently not that high?. .3) During normal operations, is it really that necessary to fly within the buffet yellow line?
After viewing all the postings here, I guess some of you will still give an 'yes' to all or some of the above. And I will not be surprised anymore.
There're some questions that I cannot answer, such as other detail numbers which some of you are asking. Because I wasn't even thinking about submitting any report when it all happend. I only put down some information for myself as reference, until what happend the next day.
But all the numbers I gave, was accurate. I can't remember all the others since I didn't have them written down, and I don't want to 'guess' them now.
Anyway, I've learned my lesson, and I've received alot of support from you guys, thank you all.
But please dont' get me wrong, I'm not here asking for people to stand by my side, but rather, intellect advices/comments. And most of you, have been very helpful indeed.
It's got nothing to do with pride, trouble-making, or anti-authority. It's simply basic safety concept, which I disagree and failing to understand.
Writting a report, mabe it was a bad idea. But I was really in a dilemma.
2 years ago, I didn't write a report on a captain after an incident, and I almost got into big trouble. And this time, people are warning of FODAS.
You see, our company are using FODAS to give pilots a hard time. Yes, you've all heard it right. FODAS are being recorded into your personal records, which will definately effect your merit and your upgrade.
I have to admit that it wasn't the only reason for me to have submitted the report, but it sure was one of the reason.
Mabe it all sounds pretty selfish to you, and I have to say, 'yes, I've made the report partly because I didn't want to get into another trouble like I had 2 years ago'. But still, I'd rather fly with someone who always keep on the safe side in their minds, but accidentaly made a pretty firm landing.
Anyway..
I know I've said it a lot, but I must say it again, that I thank you all for your postings, either who supported me, or those who jumps right in and start query my credentials. You've all been helpful.
Any further postings will not be replied, it's not a hit and run, but I think I've gathered enough information for now, not to get deeper in this(Since I know how they treated my report), but something enough for me to think for a long time... my CRM skills.
Thank you.
Tony Ko
