Hard Landings: are they useful?
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Hard Landings: are they useful?
Some captains let the copilots do hard landings without intervening (within acceptable limits, of course, but still very very firm!).
Do you think they are useful experience to the FO, or only unnecessairily harm their pride?
(BTW, I think passengers always deserve good landings...)
Do you think they are useful experience to the FO, or only unnecessairily harm their pride?
(BTW, I think passengers always deserve good landings...)
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I don't know about useful, but taxying into stand with all the duty free bottles rolling around the aisles after you've just popped open all the overhead lockers with your ham fistedness is not something you'll want to repeat.
We all aim to get it on as smoothly as we can, but remember that you don't always have the luxury of a long, long runway with a steady breeze coming straight at your nose.
If the runway's wet for example, you'll be aiming for a 'positive' touchdown to give you plenty of room to stop. Any fool can float the thing to a featherlike touchdown as long as you don't mind a stroll through the grass to get to the terminal after you've run off the other end.
Also some aircraft give a smoother landing than others anyway - especially those with trailing gears. The VC10 was famed for soft landings and I've always found the 747 to be the same.
We all aim to get it on as smoothly as we can, but remember that you don't always have the luxury of a long, long runway with a steady breeze coming straight at your nose.
If the runway's wet for example, you'll be aiming for a 'positive' touchdown to give you plenty of room to stop. Any fool can float the thing to a featherlike touchdown as long as you don't mind a stroll through the grass to get to the terminal after you've run off the other end.
Also some aircraft give a smoother landing than others anyway - especially those with trailing gears. The VC10 was famed for soft landings and I've always found the 747 to be the same.
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LEM, it depends on your definition of a "good" landing.What the passengers (and cabin crew) consider "good" is actually a SOFT landing.The fact that it was halfway down the runway,off speed,off centerline,wrong rudder,innapropriate for the rain,just lucky etc etc etc never enters their heads.
A "good" landing is on the TDZ, on speed ,on centerline,aligned and without bending the aircraft.The outcome on the day for many types when all the above is either firm or a greaser.Thats often a question of luck,or the slightest of differences.Both will be "good" landings.
You have probably never encountered a true "hard" landing which requires a check.I've absolutely stuffed the Boeing in a few times (I'm Captain BTW!)and it was never anywhere near the limit.If it is truly heading for a "piano landing" I'll jump in but I'd never ruin a good clonker! Nobody ever ruined mine.
ps,as a pilot you are only as good as your last landing-ask the Hosties!
A "good" landing is on the TDZ, on speed ,on centerline,aligned and without bending the aircraft.The outcome on the day for many types when all the above is either firm or a greaser.Thats often a question of luck,or the slightest of differences.Both will be "good" landings.
You have probably never encountered a true "hard" landing which requires a check.I've absolutely stuffed the Boeing in a few times (I'm Captain BTW!)and it was never anywhere near the limit.If it is truly heading for a "piano landing" I'll jump in but I'd never ruin a good clonker! Nobody ever ruined mine.
ps,as a pilot you are only as good as your last landing-ask the Hosties!
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Nine out of ten dentists recommend them! Nothing like a few loose molars to drum up business.
Seriously, though, I would imagine that if you made one and providing there was no damage to the aircraft (which might result in retirement plans being brought forward a tad), you have to take a lesson out of it.
Why did it happen, what could I have done to prevent it, could I have seen it coming, etc.
Seriously, though, I would imagine that if you made one and providing there was no damage to the aircraft (which might result in retirement plans being brought forward a tad), you have to take a lesson out of it.
Why did it happen, what could I have done to prevent it, could I have seen it coming, etc.
To be honest there is not much the other pilot can do about it. By the time the flare hasn't happened it is too late and a pile driver is going to happen no matter what. In some types a last minute tug on the stick can actually make things worse by rotating the main gear into the ground.
Only one thing is certain, no matter how experienced you are they still happen, they may get rarer but no one is immune. I must be due one coz it's been a while now!.
Only one thing is certain, no matter how experienced you are they still happen, they may get rarer but no one is immune. I must be due one coz it's been a while now!.
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I agree, of course, with all of the above, but often an excessively firm landing is really not required (long,dry rwys).
Personally, I'm considered a bit rude because I intervene (not by declaring "I have control", but by "helping" on the yoke) almost always as soon as I have the feeling that the FO is going to make a bad landing.
This for two reasons: I think it's not necessary for the FO to learn by the hard way when it comes to landings, and second because passengers deserve an acceptable one.
Other colleagues of mine purposely let extremely firm landings to happen because, they say, it's a good lesson for the FO.
But from the passengers' point of view it's very, very, very bad!
It's a different story on the Airbus, where the captain won't be considered "rude" if he "helps" on the joystick.
I'm told on those airplanes the FO never really knows if he made the landing or not!
Comments from fbw Airbus pilots wellcome!
Personally, I'm considered a bit rude because I intervene (not by declaring "I have control", but by "helping" on the yoke) almost always as soon as I have the feeling that the FO is going to make a bad landing.
This for two reasons: I think it's not necessary for the FO to learn by the hard way when it comes to landings, and second because passengers deserve an acceptable one.
Other colleagues of mine purposely let extremely firm landings to happen because, they say, it's a good lesson for the FO.
But from the passengers' point of view it's very, very, very bad!
It's a different story on the Airbus, where the captain won't be considered "rude" if he "helps" on the joystick.
I'm told on those airplanes the FO never really knows if he made the landing or not!
Comments from fbw Airbus pilots wellcome!
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As an Airbus FO there seem to be two types of capt - those whose left hand stays on their knee, and those whose left hand strays towards the stick (amazing how wide your peripheral vision can be 
The maj are in the former - but it doesnt bother me either way, after all, its his signature. Intervention on ldg is a much less frustrating thing than constant, unasked for and unmonitored fiddling with the fcu during descent for example, which is just bleedin rude if you ask me (not that its happened recently and Im still sore of course.......)
The maj are in the former - but it doesnt bother me either way, after all, its his signature. Intervention on ldg is a much less frustrating thing than constant, unasked for and unmonitored fiddling with the fcu during descent for example, which is just bleedin rude if you ask me (not that its happened recently and Im still sore of course.......)
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Interesting, 5209er, I thought it was standard in all companies for both pilots to land with their hand on the joystick, to be ready just in case....
Just curious, what do they teach in Toulouse?
Just curious, what do they teach in Toulouse?
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If I recall - Boeing training used to make a point of "CRISP" landing procedures as opposed to "HARD" landing & "GREASED" landings. There have been several incidents due to pilots greasing the airplanes on Sooo smooth that the air-ground logic gets confused & the airplane never gets into a "GROUND" mode where you got spoiler & thrust reversers. Recall that the air-ground sensors for these systems are inductive or magnetic prox-sensors - who in my opinion need a sharp transition - recall the levels of protection on these systems - IE spoiler & reversers on final are somehing A/C mfg's go to great lengths to avoid in the air - particularly on final for obvious reasons - therefore when in doubt - lock it out. With the advent of high thrust twins such as the 767-300ERs - pilots were performing aircraft carrier landings - slow with lots of angle of attack to grease these birds on the runways - of course this also exacerbated the occurrance of tail strike as well - morale - you should always follow the manufacturers procedure - which I think is a "CRISP" transition from air to ground - I leave that up to you research more .. IE something between popping stowage bins and ....
Regards,
Regards,
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LEM:
I do see your points, but how and when exactly do you decide the FO is going to let it drop?
There sure are a lot of different landing techniques out there, from initial breaks to last minute firm rotations. I'd personally rather have you take control and talk to me later about why you felt it necessary than regularly gently "autorotating". Latter does confuse a lot if one is not prepared for it. Maybe you should trust your right-seaters a bit more?
Because, yeah, they also do like to make soft landings...
As to the Airbus: You sure can`t feel the other CM intervening with the sidesticks, but dual input is certainly displayed and announced immediately!
I do see your points, but how and when exactly do you decide the FO is going to let it drop?
There sure are a lot of different landing techniques out there, from initial breaks to last minute firm rotations. I'd personally rather have you take control and talk to me later about why you felt it necessary than regularly gently "autorotating". Latter does confuse a lot if one is not prepared for it. Maybe you should trust your right-seaters a bit more?
Because, yeah, they also do like to make soft landings...As to the Airbus: You sure can`t feel the other CM intervening with the sidesticks, but dual input is certainly displayed and announced immediately!
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I was told by Airbus pilots that during the flare sidestick inputs are additive, with no indications at all, unless the takeover button is pushed. (like nwsteering on the ground).
Is that correct or not?
Is that correct or not?
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LEM,
To answer your question, it is standard for ONE pilot to fly the aircraft, while ONE pilot monitors. This aeroplane has been designed to be flown by one pilot or the other - period. Dual inputs CAN be made, but usually cause more problems than they cure. We've all done firm landings in our time, but never have been near the limit. As has been said already - don't confuse a "good" landing with a soft one that's in the wrong place!
Give the Airbus wind-ups a rest, it's getting boring now.
To answer your question, it is standard for ONE pilot to fly the aircraft, while ONE pilot monitors. This aeroplane has been designed to be flown by one pilot or the other - period. Dual inputs CAN be made, but usually cause more problems than they cure. We've all done firm landings in our time, but never have been near the limit. As has been said already - don't confuse a "good" landing with a soft one that's in the wrong place!
Give the Airbus wind-ups a rest, it's getting boring now.
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To answer your question, it is standard for ONE pilot to fly the aircraft, while ONE pilot monitors. This aeroplane has been designed to be flown by one pilot or the other
But this does't answer my questions:
Again, if during the flare dual inputs are made without pushing the takeover button, is there a visual/aural indication?
On a conventional aircraft, one pilot lands and the other monitors, with his hands on his laps.
On the Airbus the NON flying pilot keeps his hand on the stick, or not?
I'm not criticising here, just asking.
If you got bored, just go to another thread.
Only half a speed-brake
Letting FO hit the ground crispier than (s)he intended is definitely not a lesson learned THE hard way. That comes when CM1 or training captain to any pilot intervene on landing. This way the trainee never gets the idea which was the response of the airplane, which was the response from PF's inputs nor which was the PNF's "help". No matter how thorough the de-briefing would be.
I do only have 21 landings under line trainng on 737 but I am sure that underlines my point.
LOVECHILD, yours shall be craved to stone.
The last lainding I made was ultimately the greasiest of them all, scored only 1.11 g which is actually about half of what we get on short final over the highway or when the nosewheel hits the centerline lights (yes, the sensor is located somewhat closer to the sharp end).
And although perfectly safe, with autobrakes set to 1 there was no turn-off braking needed and about 900 m still remained, it simply was not a good landing. I managed to waste about 300 m on the flare compensating too late for the lighweight loading (20pax + 2t RSV fuel on -500) and the gentle downslope, touched down with tiny right bank, almost two body lenghts right of the ceterline with crossed controls under what was no relevant XWC at all (3kts). I was stunned how tricky the handling in ground effect can get at Vref 114kt. Thanks almighty, there was no crabbing, otherwise you probably couldn't screw up much more. Still, at 50', we were precisely where were supposed to.
That was a good lesson to learn. Had the captain at 30' held the control column down for two seconds and then said "Idle now!", it would have been a good and neat landing but close to zero instruction. I am very glad it was the other way 'round.
I do only have 21 landings under line trainng on 737 but I am sure that underlines my point.
LOVECHILD, yours shall be craved to stone.
The last lainding I made was ultimately the greasiest of them all, scored only 1.11 g which is actually about half of what we get on short final over the highway or when the nosewheel hits the centerline lights (yes, the sensor is located somewhat closer to the sharp end).
And although perfectly safe, with autobrakes set to 1 there was no turn-off braking needed and about 900 m still remained, it simply was not a good landing. I managed to waste about 300 m on the flare compensating too late for the lighweight loading (20pax + 2t RSV fuel on -500) and the gentle downslope, touched down with tiny right bank, almost two body lenghts right of the ceterline with crossed controls under what was no relevant XWC at all (3kts). I was stunned how tricky the handling in ground effect can get at Vref 114kt. Thanks almighty, there was no crabbing, otherwise you probably couldn't screw up much more. Still, at 50', we were precisely where were supposed to.
That was a good lesson to learn. Had the captain at 30' held the control column down for two seconds and then said "Idle now!", it would have been a good and neat landing but close to zero instruction. I am very glad it was the other way 'round.
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It is a horrible thing for a captain to intervene during a landing. Do captains never make hard landings? What would he feel like if the fo would regularly just 'help' him a bit on the landing...
Let everybody do their own flying, you learn by doing yourself.
Just wanted to say that...
Let everybody do their own flying, you learn by doing yourself.
Just wanted to say that...
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i just mention who is flying that particular sector ,during my welcome annoncement to the PAX,then sit back and let the F/O fly the machine.
Most do an great job knowing that the only intervention i'll make is call for a "Go-Around" if things get hairy.
Only problem can be in case of a bounce,in case the bounce sends you up to circiut altitude join left or right as appropriate!
if not lot of fast juggling recuired!!
Happy Landings!
Most do an great job knowing that the only intervention i'll make is call for a "Go-Around" if things get hairy.
Only problem can be in case of a bounce,in case the bounce sends you up to circiut altitude join left or right as appropriate!
if not lot of fast juggling recuired!!
Happy Landings!