MCP ALT setting for visual approach in USA
Can we finally agree? You set the lower of the published Missed Approach Altitude or MSA then await ATC instructions for your altitude assignment?
Which is at least MSA as per the
regs?
Which is at least MSA as per the
regs?
We are talking about what you should use as a pilot before ATC assigns something. MVA is the minimum altitude ATC will assign, depending on where you are. It is not an altitude that pilots should use for terrain clearance. Depending on radar coverage, the MSA could be a lot lower.
Which is why setting MSA is semi-useless, you won’t climb that high even in places like Denver. Set whatever you want, you don’t have a cleared altitude, so it’s not an issue. When you get a clearance, set that altitude.
But I think that is the entire problem with this discussion. It should never be a question what I will do if I can't talk to ATC. We have had plenty of unstable approaches, leading to GAs in visual conditions. And with ATC too busy to notice/give instructions, that has led to two near misses for just my airline in the last year that I was told about in recurrent, so who knows how many went unreported. Every visual should have a safe way out that is known in advance by both the pilots and ATC.
In almost every other part of the world you would fly the published instrument missed approach in the event of a go around after a visual approach to a runway. It is also specified that if you fly an instrument approach and then circle visually for a different runway, in the event of a go around you turn the shortest way to join the missed approach of the instrument approach you originally flew.
This means you are guaranteed to avoid terrain and other traffic, and there is no need to talk as ATC know exactly what you will do and will speak to you when they can.
In the USA there is no consensus as demonstrated by this thread. You just point the aircraft at the sky to an arbitrary altitude and hope you don’t hit anything or anyone before you manage to talk to ATC. You can see why some see this as having potential for an accident.
LD
This means you are guaranteed to avoid terrain and other traffic, and there is no need to talk as ATC know exactly what you will do and will speak to you when they can.
In the USA there is no consensus as demonstrated by this thread. You just point the aircraft at the sky to an arbitrary altitude and hope you don’t hit anything or anyone before you manage to talk to ATC. You can see why some see this as having potential for an accident.
LD
In almost every other part of the world you would fly the published instrument missed approach in the event of a go around after a visual approach to a runway. It is also specified that if you fly an instrument approach and then circle visually for a different runway, in the event of a go around you turn the shortest way to join the missed approach of the instrument approach you originally flew.
This means you are guaranteed to avoid terrain and other traffic, and there is no need to talk as ATC know exactly what you will do and will speak to you when they can.
This means you are guaranteed to avoid terrain and other traffic, and there is no need to talk as ATC know exactly what you will do and will speak to you when they can.
E.g. KSDL RNAV RWY 21 missed takes you to a hold at AVENT at 5,000 ft where anyone can be without talking to ATC. Floor of B at AVENT is 6,000 ft.
Now let's say there is a broken layer with bases at 4,500 ft MSL. You were cleared for the visual 21 and received no further clearance after going missed. Can you fly the hold at 5,000 ft in IMC or does clearance for a visual approach require you to stay clear of clouds until receiving a new clearance? MSA is 8,800 ft.
Last edited by EXDAC; 18th Mar 2024 at 23:40. Reason: changed "stay VFR" to "stay clear of clouds".
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In the USA there is no consensus as demonstrated by this thread. You just point the aircraft at the sky to an arbitrary altitude and hope you don’t hit anything or anyone before you manage to talk to ATC. You can see why some see this as having potential for an accident.
LD
Set the missed approach altitude from the IAP you’re using as a backup. Really not that hard, and it takes away 90% of the guesswork of hypothesising about theoretical problems IF you go missed.
There are other things that generate emails from our safety department regarding visuals.
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I totally agree, and with all your other posts on this thread.
However, it would be nice if there was a published standard heading/altitude for those times that ATC does not "otherwise instruct". I have been in the US for the last 20 years, and this is still a point of discussion, and it really should not be. ATIS advertises visual for a specific runway, and there is no NOTAM that the ILS for that rwy is not available. SOP is to back up the visual with that ILS, and set pattern altitude for the GA.
Was told to GA in BWI due to being too close to preceding traffic. Initially no other instructions were given by tower. Asked 4 times for an altitude, never got an assignment, finally was told to turn south (towards the 1100' towers, 2600' MSA) and contact approach. Approach was very busy, so FO and I agreed we would climb to 2000' before we were able to talk to them. Traffic overhead at 3000'. Obviously there was no plan in place to handle a GA in VMC, and that is not acceptable.
Like you said, ATC is not going to expect us to join the downwind at 1500', so pattern altitude does not apply, and ATC is responsible for providing a safe IFR altitude. So why not publish one?
However, it would be nice if there was a published standard heading/altitude for those times that ATC does not "otherwise instruct". I have been in the US for the last 20 years, and this is still a point of discussion, and it really should not be. ATIS advertises visual for a specific runway, and there is no NOTAM that the ILS for that rwy is not available. SOP is to back up the visual with that ILS, and set pattern altitude for the GA.
Was told to GA in BWI due to being too close to preceding traffic. Initially no other instructions were given by tower. Asked 4 times for an altitude, never got an assignment, finally was told to turn south (towards the 1100' towers, 2600' MSA) and contact approach. Approach was very busy, so FO and I agreed we would climb to 2000' before we were able to talk to them. Traffic overhead at 3000'. Obviously there was no plan in place to handle a GA in VMC, and that is not acceptable.
Like you said, ATC is not going to expect us to join the downwind at 1500', so pattern altitude does not apply, and ATC is responsible for providing a safe IFR altitude. So why not publish one?
I’d bring it up with my safety department for them to run up the chain, but I fear I’d be asked if it’s a solution in search of a problem.
There’s no expectation on ATC’s part that a go-around from a visual is flying the missed approach for some uncleared IAP. Doing so will just make things more confusing. Tower will coordinate a hand-off back to approach, but first they have coord on it. If there’s no traffic conflict just ask for pattern. It’s always amazing how many airline pilots are scared of flying visually without someone holding their hand. Look outside, monitor the TCAS, fly the plane until ATC gives what will be a simple instruction, most likely, “fly runway heading, climb to x,000’, approach 126.x.
Originally Posted by Hans
it would be nice if there was a published standard heading/altitude for those times that ATC does not "otherwise instruct".
2.14 Go Around and Missed Approach Procedure in VMC
2.14.1 Except as specified in ERSA for specific locations, an aircraft that is required to go around from a visual approach in VMC must initially climb on runway track, remain visual and await instructions from ATC. If the aircraft can not clear obstacles on runway track, the aircraft may turn.
2.14.2 In the event that an aircraft is unable, or does not wish, to land from an instrument approach in VMC, the aircraft must carry out the published instrument missed approach procedure for the instrument approach being flown, unless ATC directs otherwise.
2.14.1 Except as specified in ERSA for specific locations, an aircraft that is required to go around from a visual approach in VMC must initially climb on runway track, remain visual and await instructions from ATC. If the aircraft can not clear obstacles on runway track, the aircraft may turn.
2.14.2 In the event that an aircraft is unable, or does not wish, to land from an instrument approach in VMC, the aircraft must carry out the published instrument missed approach procedure for the instrument approach being flown, unless ATC directs otherwise.
On our own initiative, we would also set the ILS Missed Approach altitude.Join Date: Sep 2016
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31 JFK , 100% setting 1500ft. Long upwind. Right traffic. Quick PA pointing out sullys “hole in the water” in the hudson. “Look thats where he took off from!”, overfly La Guardia, wide pattern to fly over connecticut, because you can! Slow and early descent to annoy some rich folk on long island. Tell ground ramp don't care where you park.
31 JFK , 100% setting 1500ft. Long upwind. Right traffic. Quick PA pointing out sullys “hole in the water” in the hudson. “Look thats where he took off from!”, overfly La Guardia, wide pattern to fly over connecticut, because you can! Slow and early descent to annoy some rich folk on long island. Tell ground ramp don't care where you park.
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Originally Posted by Check Airman
If you’re flying a Boeing or Airbus, you’re not going to an airport where you’ll be told to enter the pattern, so we can ignore that part.
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You’ll be backing up the visual with an IAP. With the exception of a few months of stupidity at one carrier, every operator has set the missed approach altitude for the IAP. 9/10 times, that’s the altitude ATC will give you on the missed.
You do NOT fly the “published missed” for the backup approach.
———
*The few months of stupidity came from a desk pilot who thought setting 1500ft was smart. Theoretically correct, but practically stupid. If you go around in Boston, you won’t be told to join the pattern and report on base.
You do NOT fly the “published missed” for the backup approach.
———
*The few months of stupidity came from a desk pilot who thought setting 1500ft was smart. Theoretically correct, but practically stupid. If you go around in Boston, you won’t be told to join the pattern and report on base.
Since I fly near KSDL quite often, and do my best to stay out of the way of all the biz jets, I'd like to know what they will do on a missed visual to 21.