MCP ALT setting for visual approach in USA

[ricfly777]

More often we are seeing ATIS infos in US airports informing only Visual approaches available. In theory, there is no ILS or RVAV backup or reference. We can certainly use the ILS overlay and references, however for ATC and regulatory purposes, is a VISUAL app only and not based in anything else.

In case of missed approach, ATC should inform immediately an ALT and HDG, however, we must have a preset ALT on the MCP. What to set ?

1. 1500’ above field elevation

2. Published missed a app ALT of a chart you choose

3. MSA

will the other pilot simply agree with any of the above? Ok we can brief, and talk and agree, but this adds more to it.

Does your company have any guideline on this ?

I have asked pilots who operate in the US and the answers are, so far, that no one really cares as ATC will issue instructions, so anything is acceptable on the MCP. I would prefer to have a standard, agreed by all MCP ALT setting.

one day, ATC or Communication problem will delay the instruction, and our ALT preset will be important.

Is there any common understanding or guidance in your operating procedures?

[LOWI]

Originally Posted by Lady Speedbird

You have your approach chart and instructions, if you need to perform a missed approach you follow the approach plate instructions, reach for VOR/DME, hold and wait for ATC to ive you new vectors. I don't see what the issue is.

Agreed.

Jep chart will state missed approach instructions including altitude. This is what is preset. Most of the time missed approach instructions will be "rwy hdg climb x thousand" anyways. Rarely ever fly the standard missed.

[Amadis of Gaul]

Originally Posted by Lady Speedbird

You have your approach chart and instructions, if you need to perform a missed approach you follow the approach plate instructions, reach for VOR/DME, hold and wait for ATC to ive you new vectors. I don't see what the issue is.

Read his question. Carefully. Then read it again.

[Amadis of Gaul]

Originally Posted by ricfly777

More often we are seeing ATIS infos in US airports informing only Visual approaches available. In theory, there is no ILS or RVAV backup or reference. We can certainly use the ILS overlay and references, however for ATC and regulatory purposes, is a VISUAL app only and not based in anything else.

In case of missed approach, ATC should inform immediately an ALT and HDG, however, we must have a preset ALT on the MCP. What to set ?

1. 1500’ above field elevation

2. Published missed a app ALT of a chart you choose

3. MSA

will the other pilot simply agree with any of the above? Ok we can brief, and talk and agree, but this adds more to it.

Does your company have any guideline on this ?

I have asked pilots who operate in the US and the answers are, so far, that no one really cares as ATC will issue instructions, so anything is acceptable on the MCP. I would prefer to have a standard, agreed by all MCP ALT setting.

one day, ATC or Communication problem will delay the instruction, and our ALT preset will be important.

Is there any common understanding or guidance in your operating procedures?

Our policy is to set 1,500 ATDZE unless there are other factors to consider like terrain and such, e.g. LAS.

[ricfly777]

.1500’

Originally Posted by Amadis of Gaul

Our policy is to set 1,500 ATDZE unless there are other factors to consider like terrain and such, e.g. LAS.

thanks for really reading and understanding my question….

and for the reply.

[B2N2]

From the mouth of the (paper) tiger

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ...section_4.html

ATC is responsible to provide instructions to the pilot to facilitate a climb to the minimum altitude for instrument operations. ATC must provide approved separation or visual separation from other IFR aircraft.

​​​​​​​So MSA it is….

[Check Airman]

You’ll be backing up the visual with an IAP. With the exception of a few months of stupidity at one carrier, every operator has set the missed approach altitude for the IAP. 9/10 times, that’s the altitude ATC will give you on the missed.

You do NOT fly the “published missed” for the backup approach.

———

*The few months of stupidity came from a desk pilot who thought setting 1500ft was smart. Theoretically correct, but practically stupid. If you go around in Boston, you won’t be told to join the pattern and report on base.

[LOWI]

Apologies but the question could have been worded better. I am certain many of our colleagues could agree with that(!)

Regarding the answer, 1500ft above airfield elevation (rounded up of course).

You state you wish to prevent a problem arising in the future. However, nothing is ever safe and preventative in this matter.

Let's say you have preset 5000ft MCP ALT.
ATC instructs go around, runway hdg and 3000ft.
In the quick and busy reality of a go around in IMC, you forget to set 3000ft and keep the 5000ft instead.
Guess who's busting an altitude clearance?
Did your procedure save you?

[Vessbot]

Originally Posted by ricfly777

Is there any common understanding or guidance in your operating procedures?

I've been at companies where the SOP was to do all 3 of the things you said.

So far as an FAA-wide "common understanding," no.

[Vessbot]

Originally Posted by Lady Speedbird

You have your approach chart and instructions,

No you don't. There are no visual approach charts for 99% of visual approaches in the US. And for the small remaining handful that exist, they don't have missed approach instructions.

[galaxy flyer]

A visual approach does NOT have a missed approach procedure. At busy airports, likely the tower will give an altitude, heading and frequency. Pilot judgement on what MCP setting. Small, non busy airport, say KBDL, 1800 pattern altitude would work. JFK maybe 3,000 is better, LAS might be higher

[West Coast]

1500 above for us on a visual approach.

[ImbracableCrunk]

It's whatever ATC tells you. That's it.

[Locked door]

This is a massive potential accident in waiting as far as I can tell. ATC have no idea how high an aircraft will climb, aircraft have no idea about potential conflicting traffic.

It’s another example of relying on the final layer of defence to avoid a mid air collision. If the FAA had any sense it would legislate an SOP that everyone adheres to so all parties know what will happen in the event of blocked comms during a missed approach following a visual approach.

LD

[A320 Glider]

Originally Posted by Locked door

This is a massive potential accident in waiting as far as I can tell. ATC have no idea how high an aircraft will climb, aircraft have no idea about potential conflicting traffic.

It’s another example of relying on the final layer of defence to avoid a mid air collision. If the FAA had any sense it would legislate an SOP that everyone adheres to so all parties know what will happen in the event of blocked comms during a missed approach following a visual approach.

LD

Unfortunately the US has a bigger problem right now with aviation (not General Aviation, which is a sinking ship of accidents left, right and center).
That very problem is runway incursions!

[EXDAC]

KPHX has at least 2 published visual approaches and neither has any missed approach procedure. However, all the arrival routes have a lost comms procedure, typically hold at PXR VORTAC at 9,000 ft. Wouldn't ATC expect a lost coms aircraft executing a missed from a visual to follow the lost coms procedure for the arrival route?

https://www.fly.faa.gov/Information/...ANT_VIS25R.pdf
https://www.fly.faa.gov/Information/...VER_VIS25L.pdf

[Locked door]

We’re not really talking about lost comms, more a saturated frequency where ATC are unable to issue missed approach instructions although I do get your point. How many crews pre brief the lost comms procedure, and what are the chances of finding it and executing it during a go around?

[Check Airman]

Originally Posted by ImbracableCrunk

It's whatever ATC tells you. That's it.

Why does this forum not have a “like” button?

That’s really all there is to it folks. Especially if you’re based in Europe, you’re not going anywhere in the US where you’ll get anything other than a heading and altitude to fly.

You won’t ever be flying the published missed approach anyway, so no need to overthink it.

[Amadis of Gaul]

Originally Posted by ImbracableCrunk

It's whatever ATC tells you. That's it.

Indeed. To that end, it doesn't hurt to ask in advance, especially if the spacing is starting to look tight. Something like "if we have to go around, what would you like us to do?"

[Fursty Ferret]

Originally Posted by Amadis of Gaul

Indeed. To that end, it doesn't hurt to ask in advance, especially if the spacing is starting to look tight. Something like "if we have to go around, what would you like us to do?"

^^ same here. In the event we went around very unexpectedly off a visual approach and couldn't get a straight answer out of ATC, we'd very likely follow the standard missed approach for the ILS or something, as it will keep us clear of terrain and other airspace.