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2 Capt flying together, how to log the hrs in your log book.

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2 Capt flying together, how to log the hrs in your log book.

Old 21st Jan 2023, 06:50
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Question 2 Capt flying together, how to log the hrs in your log book.

2 fully qualified Captains flying together.

Capt. in the L seat is the designated commander for both sectors.

You (the other Capt.) are in the right seat

You are PM on the out sector and PF on the way back.

Assuming each sector is 1 hr, how do you enter these hours in your log book?

Your options are;

P1

P1s

P2

Co-pilot
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 07:19
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Whatever you'd normally log First Officer time as.
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 08:20
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Under EASA rules the operator (airline, AOC holder) assigns who is the PIC, and only that person can log PIC time. Even if he/she is in the bunk. The other pilots on board can log P2/SIC. Even if one is paid and trained as a captain. Two captains flying together has a few issues, as the above one, but also possible flightdeck authority gradient problems, who can abort a take off. So a very thorough briefing is in order and most unions are pretty much against it. Since you do need specific right hand seat training anyway to fly in the right hand seat as a captain, many airlines do not bother with that anymore except for trainers of course.
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 13:18
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Command time is Command time, and is logged by the Commander.

Being qualified as a Captain in an airline qualifies you to log Command time - if you are in Command.

If you are not in Command, it is possible to be In Command, Under Supervision (ICUS) and, if that is the case, you can log the time as such. This has nothing to do with who is PF for any sector. You do not decide after the fact if you were acting In Command, Under Supervision (that's not possible). If you are to act in that position, then it needs to be agreed before the flight with the Commander, briefed to any other crew (i.e. Cabin Crew), and all of the Command decisions will then be made by the ICUS pilot - fuel, delays for maintenance, tech log & MEL decisions, weather delays or in-flight diversions, Cabin Crew briefings, etc etc. The entire day would be logged as ICUS - regardless of who was PF on any particular sector.

As described, all of the time would be logged as FO time (P2, Co-Pilot etc)
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 14:03
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An interesting point to add, are you qualified and authorised to be PF from the right hand seat ?
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 15:53
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Originally Posted by Black Pudding
An interesting point to add, are you qualified and authorised to be PF from the right hand seat ?
Must be v low time to even worry about that........
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 15:53
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Originally Posted by Black Pudding
An interesting point to add, are you qualified and authorised to be PF from the right hand seat ?
Most airlines that RHS check their Captains do not permit them to be PF from the RHS. The exception is suitably qualified Training Captains.
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 17:41
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Originally Posted by Black Pudding
An interesting point to add, are you qualified and authorised to be PF from the right hand seat ?
It doesn't even matter if you are PF. You need a right seat qualification even if you are PM in the right seat.

A typical rule for PIC designation is usually TRE>TRI>LTC>CPT and seniority on type ico equal "status"
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 17:50
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Anyone in the RHS, other than cruise relief pilots in the RHS in cruise flight, has to be able to perform all the PF duties in the event of a LHS pilot incapacitation
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 19:54
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Originally Posted by 45989
Must be v low time to even worry about that........
Depending on ruleset it might be a legal issue. In EASA land once you have passed a command course you are not allowed to operate from the right seat anymore. Until you have completed a right hand seat qualification training in the simulator plus line training for it, including requalification at least once a year in a simulator. Usually V1 cut, single engine approach and landing/go around and an aborted take off from the right hand side. Basically catering to trainers having to fly line training with new commanders.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 00:13
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Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever
Anyone in the RHS, other than cruise relief pilots in the RHS in cruise flight, has to be able to perform all the PF duties in the event of a LHS pilot incapacitation
This is true but some companies will only let you fly PM from the right seat in normal ops.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 00:22
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Originally Posted by BraceBrace
It doesn't even matter if you are PF. You need a right seat qualification even if you are PM in the right seat.

A typical rule for PIC designation is usually TRE>TRI>LTC>CPT and seniority on type ico equal "status"
The designation as PIC is defined by the operator, there is no regulatory requirement under EASA for the PIC to be in a control seat.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 00:27
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Originally Posted by SixPin
2 fully qualified Captains flying together.

Capt. in the L seat is the designated commander for both sectors.

You (the other Capt.) are in the right seat

You are PM on the out sector and PF on the way back.

Assuming each sector is 1 hr, how do you enter these hours in your log book?

Your options are;

P1

P1s

P2

Co-pilot
Both sectors are copilot time, a crew member other than the PIC. The logging of P2/P1S is up to your operations manual, probably P2 sector 1 and P1S sector 2
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 05:26
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Most of you are wasting time on what other companies SOPs may or may not be, Iím not interested. Iím a veteran Capt. of over 20 years but new to this operation in which all Caps are LS & RS qualified and tested in both seats as PM & PF and yes thatís SIM and line checked.

The operator has no interest in how we log our hours as long as they are logged.

This is not a major issue, just a discussion amongst us Caps as which category it should be under. We have 2 TREs and they canít agree on which cat we should be logging it. One says PF is P1 regardless of seat because you are a qualified commander, the fact that the other Capt. for that day signs the tech log is irrelevant. The other is saying RS PF is P1s.

Remember, this is only log book trivia, nothing to do with SOPs.
We are just curious as to hear other points of view.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 05:47
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Yep, and the answer is P2. The reason the discussion has digressed to SOPs is because your question was answered. You’re not designated commander, so you log P2 / SIC whatever the relevant column in your logbook is.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 05:49
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When two Captains are scheduled to fly together during regular line operations, the designated commander logs the flight as P1/ PIC/ Commander and the Captain scheduled to fly in the right seat logs the flight as P2/ First Officer.
The designated commander is the Captain who the company has scheduled to be in command for the flight and is the pilot signing the technical log and ultimately responsible for the aircraft and flight.
The roles of PF and PM have nothing to do with who is commander. As mentioned, a Captain needs to be qualified to fly in the right seat but, when they do, they are just doing the job of First Officer.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 09:19
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A previous company we swapped seats so both got a PF sector from the LHS. Worked on LH and SH ops as long as both were RHS checked.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 11:46
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AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time says under point

h) When an aircraft carries two or more pilots as members of the operating crew, one of them shall, before the flight commences, be designated by the operator as the aircraft PIC, according to operational requirements, who may delegate the conduct of the flight to another suitably qualified pilot. All flying carried out as PIC is entered in the logbook as ‘PIC’. A pilot flying as ‘PICUS’ or ‘SPIC’ enters flying time as ‘PIC’ but all such entries are to be certified by the PIC or FI in the ‘Remarks’ column of the logbook.

So even if the operator does not care, he has the duty to designate who is PIC and who isn't. PF and PNF does not enter into it, nor on which seat the PIC sits.

To be able to log PICUS time it has to be done under a program which has a method of supervision that has been accepted by the authority, in the UK that was traditionally extremely lax and a signature by the PIC was all that was required, other authorities require an OMD specified and approved training program. During such a program i was flying from the left, taking all decisions, signing the documents but still was not the PIC, i could just log PICUS for that.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 12:56
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This thread needs a 'Denti-only' filter.

Quite a senior moment the TREs are having over a pint, though.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 15:00
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This is a fascinating insight into a different world, thank you ! As an instructor and check pilot in lighter aircraft I was used to flying, teaching and commanding from either seat.. It was never specifically discussed or tested for, so the flexibility got quickly built in. Sure, if in doubt a quick familiarisation circuit with another instructor might be slotted in, to allow familiarisation with different control layouts or operating alternate handed, but not regulated for.

Actually the occasional variations added to the fun; when checking, say, survey or photographic pilots, they may prefer to operate from the RHS, so the instructor gets the LHS for a pleasant change !

Most interesting ; I didn't realise that aircraft captains might require approvals for flying in the other seat !
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