2 Capt flying together, how to log the hrs in your log book.
Avoid imitations
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Interesting as it is, and without wanting to incur the wrath of the mods, I am genuinely puzzled as to why this "question" has remained in the Rumours and News forum for so long?
Avman,
I agree with you, but I am also puzzled why this topic of logbook entries pops up so often on PPRuNe. It seems to be an obsession with UK pilots, both Commercial and Private.
I've never seen this issue raised by any other nationality. Are the rules less clear in the UK than elsewhere?
I agree with you, but I am also puzzled why this topic of logbook entries pops up so often on PPRuNe. It seems to be an obsession with UK pilots, both Commercial and Private.
I've never seen this issue raised by any other nationality. Are the rules less clear in the UK than elsewhere?
AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time says under point
To be able to log PICUS time it has to be done under a program which has a method of supervision that has been accepted by the authority, in the UK that was traditionally extremely lax and a signature by the PIC was all that was required, other authorities require an OMD specified and approved training program. During such a program i was flying from the left, taking all decisions, signing the documents but still was not the PIC, i could just log PICUS for that.
To be able to log PICUS time it has to be done under a program which has a method of supervision that has been accepted by the authority, in the UK that was traditionally extremely lax and a signature by the PIC was all that was required, other authorities require an OMD specified and approved training program. During such a program i was flying from the left, taking all decisions, signing the documents but still was not the PIC, i could just log PICUS for that.
(in UK) Any Captain can agree to allow any FO to act u/s unless company rules prohibit it - highly unlikely. To qualify for the P1u/s the FO must make all command decisions thoughout the duty from briefing and met in the crewroom onwards, in other words act successfully in the role of Captain from crewroom to crewroom. Only a fully satisfactory day with no significant overrides from the Capt qualifies for the required signature in his logbook against the P1u/s hours claimed. The decision of whether or not to sign the logbook was entirely the Captain's. Thus it is clear that, as often happened to me, when an FO thrusted his logbook under your nose at the end of a day requesting a signature and this is the first time that day you'd heard mention of P1u/s the FO was going to be disappointed.
The 'program' referred to is an official fudge arranged by some airlines with the CAA that somehow or other 'allows' FOs to log P1u/s on their handling sectors with no regard whatsoever to decision making. This is simply a travesty of the very sensible and somewhat taxing learning arrangement described above and one that bears no resemblance to P1u/s as described in various CAA publications. (For a start it is based on FO's handling sectors, and P1u/s has nothing whatseoever to do with PF/PNF - something as basic as that you'd think the authority would know...
More importantly, it robs FOs of the opportunity to practice under the pressures of command and denies tham the practice that will stand them in good stead come their command asessment - for which, under this crazy system, they arrive completely unprepared and unpracticed, a crazy situation as I'm sure all will agree.
I do read about "who takes the decisions" choices on this thread. All decisions are taken as a crew after discussions on equal terms. PICUS time is not created to show someones ability to "play the boss", it's more about opening up the discussions, being able to "set the pace" and create a good working atmosphere. It's more about creating and leading a "smooth show".
There is a side of "courtesy" that is true. In my company ie there is an obligation to announce the request during the preflight briefing. Nothing more.
Last edited by BraceBrace; 23rd Jan 2023 at 23:46.
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Perhaps,
Interesting as it is, and without wanting to incur the wrath of the mods, I am genuinely puzzled as to why this "question" has remained in the Rumours and News forum for so long?
Since it's not clear in the regs, and there does appear to be a significant variation of viewpoints, and no definite answer, it may fit into the 'rumour' box? Opinion box? Maybe Jetblast? I never thought much about it. If i was not signing the flight release or flight plog or whatever terminology used, i saw no need to log it as captain. Only when i was the one who would get in trouble if things went wrong, and i had to make the final decision and sat in the left seat, after all training, did i log as PIC.
Since it's not clear in the regs, and there does appear to be a significant variation of viewpoints, and no definite answer, it may fit into the 'rumour' box? Opinion box? Maybe Jetblast? I never thought much about it. If i was not signing the flight release or flight plog or whatever terminology used, i saw no need to log it as captain. Only when i was the one who would get in trouble if things went wrong, and i had to make the final decision and sat in the left seat, after all training, did i log as PIC.
That hasn't been my experience. I've been RHS qualified, but not a trainer, for two airlines and we just flew leg-for-leg.
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The easiest way to wrap yoir head around this is to understand that the rank of Captain is meaningless so far as logging time is concerned.
Captain is simply a company job title that means you qualified to be in command and may (but might not) be rostered to do so.
Captain is simply a company job title that means you qualified to be in command and may (but might not) be rostered to do so.
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That's funny!
The easiest way to wrap yoir head around this is to understand that the rank of Captain is meaningless so far as logging time is concerned.
Captain is simply a company job title that means you qualified to be in command and may (but might not) be rostered to do so.
Captain is simply a company job title that means you qualified to be in command and may (but might not) be rostered to do so.
It kind of makes sense overall (captains flying right hand seat having not done so in years) but it can seem pretty ridiculous when you've just upgraded and suddenly you're deemed incompetent to fly from the seat you're most comfortable in.
I was always told once you had qualified as PIC on type you can log all flying as PIC even in RHS. Who actually cares.? Once you have a command, all hours are just HOURS. Unless you move to a new type and only qualified as first officer again…
They're only just hours if you're actually making decisions, you know, being in command. If you have a PIC qualification but then, due to some weird hiring / rostering system, only ever flew in the RHS functioning as an FO, it would be disingenuous to claim they were all command hours. Who cares? The people hiring you for your next job who think you've got 2000 command hours when you only have 100.
Can we please stop the very old school "when you are taking decisions" description? PIC is a responsibility designation. A PIC can perfectly leave the decision making over to another crewmember, but he cannot transfer his responsibility. OM A explains the responsibilities, authority and duties of the PIC. A copilot is responsible to take over "command" if he deems the PIC is "incapacitated" (ie intoxicated by alcohol) and becomes PIC. A PIC can even be on the jumpseat. PIC logs PIC hours. The others don't.
If you want to know how taking decisions is done, it's explained in a CRM course. If you want to know how seat-specific procedures are done, that's type rating or seat qualification stuff.
If you want to know how taking decisions is done, it's explained in a CRM course. If you want to know how seat-specific procedures are done, that's type rating or seat qualification stuff.
Last edited by BraceBrace; 25th Jan 2023 at 14:06.
Only half a speed-brake
Also, the rules on logging have been well established since JAR-OPS, that is 1997-1999 aroundish. Denti explained all that was needed.
#27 sadly confirms the UK's reputation for abusing the PIC(US) designation and authority regardless of the actual regulatory guidance in place. Indeed all job qualifications since 2 decades clearly spell PIC hours shall not include any PIC(US) imposter time. And that clarification was not created because of the core 90-80 hrs PIC(US) needed by an ab-initio cadet to unlock his ATPL or the time during a command course LOE and checkrides (Denti's OM-D approved cases).
EDIT: Cannot locate the CAA.UK document on this, probably about 15 years from the publishing date now, was explaining the logging for heavy crews. Nicely compiled and a good read.
An interesting find during the search was that HKCAD asks for the PIC(US) to conduct the tkof and ldg.
#27 sadly confirms the UK's reputation for abusing the PIC(US) designation and authority regardless of the actual regulatory guidance in place. Indeed all job qualifications since 2 decades clearly spell PIC hours shall not include any PIC(US) imposter time. And that clarification was not created because of the core 90-80 hrs PIC(US) needed by an ab-initio cadet to unlock his ATPL or the time during a command course LOE and checkrides (Denti's OM-D approved cases).
EDIT: Cannot locate the CAA.UK document on this, probably about 15 years from the publishing date now, was explaining the logging for heavy crews. Nicely compiled and a good read.
An interesting find during the search was that HKCAD asks for the PIC(US) to conduct the tkof and ldg.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 25th Jan 2023 at 17:09.
Originally Posted by BraceBrace
I do read about "who takes the decisions" choices on this thread. All decisions are taken as a crew after discussions on equal terms.
Originally Posted by BraceBrace
Can we please stop the very old school "when you are taking decisions" description?
