2 Capt flying together, how to log the hrs in your log book.
How is this thread still going? For normal line flights the question is incorrect - two Captains can't fly together. There's a captain and an FO, regardless of what they get paid and what's on their shoulders. That's even how our roster shows it.
I think Denti way back on page 1 had it right. I think it would be P2 for the pilot who was not the designated commander.
Rudestuff. Different companies and national agencies rules may (will!) vary but I can see various scenarios where two captain could fly together. For example, I heard of a Royal Flight in the Middle East where all the pilots were both captains and all were right seat checked to ensure maximum flexibility. Alternatively a captain who needs landings for recency so the trainer occupies the right seat and acts as PM for both sectors. I’m sure there are other examples.
Rudestuff. Different companies and national agencies rules may (will!) vary but I can see various scenarios where two captain could fly together. For example, I heard of a Royal Flight in the Middle East where all the pilots were both captains and all were right seat checked to ensure maximum flexibility. Alternatively a captain who needs landings for recency so the trainer occupies the right seat and acts as PM for both sectors. I’m sure there are other examples.
I think Denti way back on page 1 had it right. I think it would be P2 for the pilot who was not the designated commander.
Rudestuff. Different companies and national agencies rules may (will!) vary but I can see various scenarios where two captain could fly together. For example, I heard of a Royal Flight in the Middle East where all the pilots were both captains and all were right seat checked to ensure maximum flexibility. Alternatively a captain who needs landings for recency so the trainer occupies the right seat and acts as PM for both sectors. I’m sure there are other examples.
Rudestuff. Different companies and national agencies rules may (will!) vary but I can see various scenarios where two captain could fly together. For example, I heard of a Royal Flight in the Middle East where all the pilots were both captains and all were right seat checked to ensure maximum flexibility. Alternatively a captain who needs landings for recency so the trainer occupies the right seat and acts as PM for both sectors. I’m sure there are other examples.
Pretty logical if you are flying Boeing as in the Boeing FCOM, left hand seat is called Captain, and right hand seat is FO and those are seat qualifications resulting in area’s of responsibility, seat specific workflows,...
But it has nothing to do with PIC designation. PIC requires a Command course to be completed.
But it has nothing to do with PIC designation. PIC requires a Command course to be completed.
Only half a speed-brake
50% of my employers would provide their captains with 'right-hand-seat' qualification which actually is a thing for all airplanes where 2 pilots are required.
Just because they saw the operational need / economic benefits of doing so.
One of them did provide LVTO training as PF to the F/O's and thus, as an extra add-on to RHS training of their captains, even PF LVTO was conducted.
(suggestion is made to keep heavy crew patterns out of this now, outside of the OP question scope. And trainings/exams too).
One suitably qualified captain needs to be nominated as PIC for each given flight. Under EASA nomenclature, this role is called 'Commander'.
Commander logs PIC.
All others log co-pilot, ona a plane where more than one person at controls is required.
PIC(US) is reserved to pre-determenided cases approved by the authority (such as trainings for the role of PIC listed in OM-D) and subject to approval by CMD after the flight. 'No intervention' rule applies.
The above is EASA based. What Denti says.
Just because they saw the operational need / economic benefits of doing so.
One of them did provide LVTO training as PF to the F/O's and thus, as an extra add-on to RHS training of their captains, even PF LVTO was conducted.
(suggestion is made to keep heavy crew patterns out of this now, outside of the OP question scope. And trainings/exams too).
One suitably qualified captain needs to be nominated as PIC for each given flight. Under EASA nomenclature, this role is called 'Commander'.
Commander logs PIC.
All others log co-pilot, ona a plane where more than one person at controls is required.
PIC(US) is reserved to pre-determenided cases approved by the authority (such as trainings for the role of PIC listed in OM-D) and subject to approval by CMD after the flight. 'No intervention' rule applies.
The above is EASA based. What Denti says.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 26th Jan 2023 at 12:44.
Logging time in the bunk........
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In my company the person who sits on the L/H is also the PIC in that role unless it's a training flight under the supervision of a training captain. In that case the R/H seating Captain will be the PIC and will log these hours. If two captains are assigned on the flight the company will designate a "mission commander" who will act as the PIC and will seat on the Left. All captains will receive a RHS check and training and are expected to perform duties from this position as well (PF/PNF) - however it sometimes leads to silly discussions (ego maybe?) and a Captain tries to explain you why he can't sit on the right and whatsoever..
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ORO.FC.105 Designation as pilot-in-command/commander
Regulation (EU) 2021/2237
(a) In accordance with point 8.6 of Annex V to Regulation (EU) 2018/1139, one pilot amongst the flight crew, qualified as pilot-in-command in accordance with Annex I (Part-FCL) to Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011, shall be designated by the operator as pilot-in-command or, for commercial air transport operations, as commander.
Come on, your not just a PIC, you are a commander!
I love this one:
AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time
(b) Logging of time:
(1) PIC flight time:
(i) the holder of a licence may log as PIC time all of the flight time during which he or she is the PIC
So they make it clear that a PIC logs his or her flight time as PIC. But how a commander should log his or her flight time? We must admit that the practice of logging as PIC while you are a commander is not a written rule.
Regulation (EU) 2021/2237
(a) In accordance with point 8.6 of Annex V to Regulation (EU) 2018/1139, one pilot amongst the flight crew, qualified as pilot-in-command in accordance with Annex I (Part-FCL) to Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011, shall be designated by the operator as pilot-in-command or, for commercial air transport operations, as commander.
Come on, your not just a PIC, you are a commander!
I love this one:
AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time
(b) Logging of time:
(1) PIC flight time:
(i) the holder of a licence may log as PIC time all of the flight time during which he or she is the PIC
So they make it clear that a PIC logs his or her flight time as PIC. But how a commander should log his or her flight time? We must admit that the practice of logging as PIC while you are a commander is not a written rule.
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How about..
Can we please stop the very old school "when you are taking decisions" description? PIC is a responsibility designation. A PIC can perfectly leave the decision making over to another crewmember, but he cannot transfer his responsibility. OM A explains the responsibilities, authority and duties of the PIC. A copilot is responsible to take over "command" if he deems the PIC is "incapacitated" (ie intoxicated by alcohol) and becomes PIC. A PIC can even be on the jumpseat. PIC logs PIC hours. The others don't.
If you want to know how taking decisions is done, it's explained in a CRM course. If you want to know how seat-specific procedures are done, that's type rating or seat qualification stuff.
If you want to know how taking decisions is done, it's explained in a CRM course. If you want to know how seat-specific procedures are done, that's type rating or seat qualification stuff.
“Old school”??? and “very” on top of that…
what I think he meant was, taking the final decision. That’s what it boils down to when things start going south.
even in training, one would let the trainee make the decision, to a point. One would not let the flight continue into a hazardous situation just to “instruct.” So, taking the final decision can be active or passive, but sits only on one set of shoulders when on the wrong side of the interrogation table. That’s how I always understood PIC.
uh…isn’t that the same as ‘responsibilty’?
I react like this because in those 99% of the cases, if pilots lean so heavily on the fact they have to take the final decision as a commander, many times they think these are good/bad decisions, right/wrong, which in reality are not. They are just ego's fooling themselves thinking they know the truth. But it is not truth, it is their zone of comfort and leaving the others hanging dry. And THAT, is very old school. Ask KLM, they had a famous case in Tenerife. It is also very apparent in cultures that thrive on authority levels like that, plenty of cases to be found.
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"I react"
Things don't always start going south. On the contrary, in 99% of the cases the decision to be taken is one between different opinions and in many cases there is never a black and white truth, there is ideology and a zone of comfort. And from a point of view of "safety" and "not losing the other side", sometimes the commander might be better of leaving the decision with the weakest from a crew point of view and going along with that point of view, yet taking responsibility for it as a single person.
I react like this because in those 99% of the cases, if pilots lean so heavily on the fact they have to take the final decision as a commander, many times they think these are good/bad decisions, right/wrong, which in reality are not. They are just ego's fooling themselves thinking they know the truth. But it is not truth, it is their zone of comfort and leaving the others hanging dry. And THAT, is very old school. Ask KLM, they had famous case in Tenerife...
I react like this because in those 99% of the cases, if pilots lean so heavily on the fact they have to take the final decision as a commander, many times they think these are good/bad decisions, right/wrong, which in reality are not. They are just ego's fooling themselves thinking they know the truth. But it is not truth, it is their zone of comfort and leaving the others hanging dry. And THAT, is very old school. Ask KLM, they had famous case in Tenerife...
It also depends on the individual "PIC" experience. New PIC will be extra cautious. It took you a while to settle in?
And there are truly some who do not belong there at all. I found the most "nervous" and "micro-controlling" pilots were the least able.
There is a wide range, but when one is PIC, he/she/it has to shoulder the final load.
Personally the "old school" guys taught me a lot, in the Alaska bush in the Twin Otter and later the old school in the 737-200 with the gravel kit.
Then we ended up in the most SOPed up airline possible with all the touchy feely new school perspectives, but many 'old school' principles remained true as far as I could see. A mix of both is a good thing.
