A320 LDG with Slats or flaps jammed

[vilas]

Actually GA flap is a must for flap full approach. Rest are all take of configurations so there are no performance issues. If a GA occurs in a tricky position flaps can be maintained as a situational remedy. Not retracting from flap1 is a non issue. Even in Flap3 first retraction (during acceleration) is flap1. Following para is from Airbus document.

When landing configuration is not established (CONF1 or CONF2) there is no particular need to retract the flaps one step as there is no drag issue, and therefore, no performance impact. However, standard go around procedure (GO AROUND – FLAPS) could be applied, even when in CONF1, provided TOGA detent is reached prior flaps retraction (to ensure GO AROUND phase engagement). A/THR and FD’s will maintain VLS, and Slats Alpha / Speed lock function will inhibit slats retraction if necessary.

[Lantirn]

Vilas thats gold.

Where is that reference?

[vilas]

Originally Posted by Lantirn

Vilas thats gold.

Where is that reference?

One of airbus instructor meetings.

[Lantirn]

vilas Just a clarification here.

If the crew wants to retract for diversion, the first retraction will be between max and max-10. The second would be between max and max-10 for the changed configuration and so on. So one should have the table open to select the proper speeds? Or maybe monitor the status page as the max speed will adjust by itself and then select the respective speed?

Obviously this will be for the slats jammed case, or with no limit if flap at zero.

[vilas]

Originally Posted by Lantirn

vilas Just a clarification here.

If the crew wants to retract for diversion, the first retraction will be between max and max-10. The second would be between max and max-10 for the changed configuration and so on. So one should have the table open to select the proper speeds? Or maybe monitor the status page as the max speed will adjust by itself and then select the respective speed?

Obviously this will be for the slats jammed case, or with no limit if flap at zero.

STATUS page will only give initial max speed. In case of diversion during subsequent retractions pilot will have to calculate. No need for QRH VFEs are written on top of ISIS.

[LHRPony]

Originally Posted by vilas

The second question why disconnect ATHR? Because there's ATHR protection for underspeed and overspeed. It will not allow it to go below VLS for the present flap configuration and that's more than VFE Next.

Vilas, I know I probably have the wrong end of the stick, but the QRH says

• If VLS is greater than VFE NEXT (overweight landing case), the FLAPS lever can be set in the required next position, while the speed is reduced to follow VLS reduction as surfaces extend. The VFE warning threshold should not be triggered.
  
  In this case, disconnect the A/THR. A/THR can be re-engaged when the landing configuration is established.
  
  which the way I read it is to select flaps when at VLS, even above VFE next and track the VLS down as the surfaces extend.
  So I’ve never understood why the A/THR has to be disconnected. Eg if Vls was above VFE next, and you select say, vfe next -5, the A/THR will keep the speed at VLS above VFE next, when you select the flap and the surfaces move, the A/THR will follow VLS down.
  In the “normal” over weight checklist I get it, that you may have to disconnect as described, but the overweight flap/slats jammed fault case was different.
  
  Would really appreciate your input.
  Kind regards and Happy new year
  

[vilas]

Originally Posted by LHRPony

Vilas, I know I probably have the wrong end of the stick, but the QRH says

• If VLS is greater than VFE NEXT (overweight landing case), the FLAPS lever can be set in the required next position, while the speed is reduced to follow VLS reduction as surfaces extend. The VFE warning threshold should not be triggered.
  
  In this case, disconnect the A/THR. A/THR can be re-engaged when the landing configuration is established.
  
  which the way I read it is to select flaps when at VLS, even above VFE next and track the VLS down as the surfaces extend.
  So I’ve never understood why the A/THR has to be disconnected. Eg if Vls was above VFE next, and you select say, vfe next -5, the A/THR will keep the speed at VLS above VFE next, when you select the flap and the surfaces move, the A/THR will follow VLS down.
  In the “normal” over weight checklist I get it, that you may have to disconnect as described, but the overweight flap/slats jammed fault case was different.
  
  Would really appreciate your input.
  Kind regards and Happy new year
  

ATHR maintains F speed not VLS. That is why it's disconnected.

[LHRPony]

Many thanks Vilas for your response.
I agree it would Target F speed if the speed was left managed, but as per the QRH your using SELECTED speed to VFE NEXT -5 (which is inside the VLS in this case) then the A/THR would reduce speed only VLS? As you ran the flap as per the QRH above VFE next, you will end up in the black & reds briefly but shouldn’t trigger a over speed warning as that’s done on actual position?
I know I must be missing something, I’m just trying to figure out what? And why they say you may need to disconnect the A/THR.
Many thanks for your input.

[vilas]

Originally Posted by LHRPony

Many thanks Vilas for your response.
I agree it would Target F speed if the speed was left managed, but as per the QRH your using SELECTED speed to VFE NEXT -5 (which is inside the VLS in this case) then the A/THR would reduce speed only VLS? As you ran the flap as per the QRH above VFE next, you will end up in the black & reds briefly but shouldn’t trigger a over speed warning as that’s done on actual position?
I know I must be missing something, I’m just trying to figure out what? And why they say you may need to disconnect the A/THR.
Many thanks for your input.

Yes! When VFE next is less than VLS even in select speed ATHR will maintain VLS which is still beyond the VFEnext. Since VLS is real time speed as you lower the next flap as the surface extends gradually the VLS also starts decreasing. Here for better control of speed ATHR is disconnected and once under control can be reengaged.

[FlightDetent]

I lost you guys at #26.

If the Vls is above VFE(next) and A/THR engaged,
+ you select man speed sel VFEnext -5
+ ATH/R observes Vls

And nothing else happens. There will be no decrease of Vls as the flaps extend because they will not. You are still stuck at the original Vls that is above your VFEnext.

Hence the call for ATHR off, so that you can reduce into the Vls zone in order to deploy the flaps next notch. Only then observe the Vls dropping which creates the room to re-engage the ATHR.

[vilas]

Originally Posted by FlightDetent

I lost you guys at #26.

If the Vls is above VFE(next) and A/THR engaged,
+ you select man speed sel VFEnext -5
+ ATH/R observes Vls

And nothing else happens. There will be no decrease of Vls as the flaps extend because they will not. You are still stuck at the original Vls that is above your VFEnext.

Hence the call for ATHR off, so that you can reduce into the Vls zone in order to deploy the flaps next notch. Only then observe the Vls dropping which creates the room to re-engage the ATHR.

In select speed with ATHR on it will maintain VLS is correct which otherwise would maintain F or S speed but you are supposed to select next flap at that VLS and they will extend (at any speed) but since speed is in select it will maintain same VLS is also correct. You don't reduce into VLS zone but follow the reduction of VLS itself which is taking place because the surface extension.
What he has quoted in #26 is from the procedure.

[FlightDetent]

Aaah, all written there already, now that you point it out.

​​​​​​Appreciated.

[dream747]

I’ve always understood that the SRS mode mode will engage on go-around provided that the flap lever is selected to at least 1. However, in our latest FCOM revision, it now states that the slats or flaps must be extended.

If we do a go-around with slats and flaps stuck at 0 but the flap lever is set to 1 as per ECAM, do we actually get SRS?

[AerocatS2A]

Originally Posted by dream747

I’ve always understood that the SRS mode mode will engage on go-around provided that the flap lever is selected to at least 1. However, in our latest FCOM revision, it now states that the slats or flaps must be extended.

If we do a go-around with slats and flaps stuck at 0 but the flap lever is set to 1 as per ECAM, do we actually get SRS?

That is an error apparently and should be amended to say it engages based on lever position. There was a thread about it a few months back.

[vilas]

Originally Posted by dream747

I’ve always understood that the SRS mode mode will engage on go-around provided that the flap lever is selected to at least 1. However, in our latest FCOM revision, it now states that the slats or flaps must be extended.

If we do a go-around with slats and flaps stuck at 0 but the flap lever is set to 1 as per ECAM, do we actually get SRS?

It's an error in latest revision of FCOM. The error is confirmed by Airbus will be ammended shortly.

[dream747]

Thanks guys. I read about this issue in a thread a few months back but the very recent article by Airbus still state at least flaps or slats must be extended (at least on the A320 family) to have SRS. Would have expected them to put the corrected information in.
https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/non-e...configuration/

We also tried flap lever fault in the simulator, regardless of what position the flap lever is, SRS doesn’t engage on go-around. Is this what we can expect on the aircraft as well? If so, I think there’s not much detail or write-up by Airbus on flap lever faults.

Cheers.

[AerocatS2A]

Originally Posted by dream747

Thanks guys. I read about this issue in a thread a few months back but the very recent article by Airbus still state at least flaps or slats must be extended (at least on the A320 family) to have SRS. Would have expected them to put the corrected information in.
https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/non-e...configuration/

We also tried flap lever fault in the simulator, regardless of what position the flap lever is, SRS doesn’t engage on go-around. Is this what we can expect on the aircraft as well? If so, I think there’s not much detail or write-up by Airbus on flap lever faults.

Cheers.

That article says that you should refer to the FCOM for the specifics of whether the flap/slat position or lever position is considered for engagement of SRS.

If there is a flap lever fault then presumably the flap lever position is not sensed and so SRS will not engage.