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Why is automation dependency encouraged in modern aviation ?

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Why is automation dependency encouraged in modern aviation ?

Old 6th Jan 2021, 17:29
  #261 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gums View Post
Up to me I would require a few training moments every year in the real plane with degraded computer modes - maybe not pure, direct law at the beginning, but at least feeling how the plane reacts without all the protections, gains and smoothing and...
Don't we already do that? We always have some element of direct and alternate law flight at some point in the year. At the legal minimum, I imagine it is required at least once every 3 years during the ATQP cycles. The move to EBT should demonstrate when extended modules are required to to a reduction in proficiency.
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Old 6th Jan 2021, 17:45
  #262 (permalink)  
 
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It is indeed a rare simulator instructor who has the confidence and technical skill to confidently demonstrate a hand flown IMC sequence. Engine failure at V1 for example.
I don't know which aircraft you fly but engine failure at V1 in Airbus as compared to even other non FBW airbuses is a joke. Even if one flies EFATO once in a year it can be done in AB FBW within a few degrees of deviation. So anyone who cannot demonstrate EFATO with competence how does he become an instructor is mystery to me. Direct law is no big deal either. Actually if you can't fly Airbus well Bernard Ziegler will be offended. In any case you won't be able fly any other aircraft well either.
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Old 6th Jan 2021, 18:22
  #263 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks, giggi...... makes me feel better next time I get to fly
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 07:08
  #264 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by giggitygiggity View Post
Don't we already do that? We always have some element of direct and alternate law flight at some point in the year. At the legal minimum, I imagine it is required at least once every 3 years during the ATQP cycles. The move to EBT should demonstrate when extended modules are required to to a reduction in proficiency.
If you mean in real aircraft then no, we don't. All abnormals are only done in the simulator. In PPC or recurrent some failures are practiced that give you alternate/direct law. But never in real aircraft.
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Old 7th Jan 2021, 19:34
  #265 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by FlyingStone View Post
I don't know where you fly, but there's a fair amout of autolands done during the year due to weather, so you can shed couple of percent of the 100% figure.

Significant proportion requiring raw data visual approach or sidestep? How many flights in the last 12 months would you be unable to complete (as in would have to divert) without doing a visual approach or a sidestep?
Any flight to Nice (NCE) RWY22 will require a curved final approach without automation. Surely you can still refuse visual or sidestep at the cost of a reduced operations efficacy, but some approaches remain and still require good manual handling skills.
Flights to Corsica might often require visual as well.
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Old 8th Jan 2021, 06:12
  #266 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FlyingStone View Post
I don't know where you fly, but there's a fair amout of autolands done during the year due to weather, so you can shed couple of percent of the 100% figure.

Significant proportion requiring raw data visual approach or sidestep? How many flights in the last 12 months would you be unable to complete (as in would have to divert) without doing a visual approach or a sidestep?
Thatíll be quite dependent on where you fly. You do autolands quite often. At my base, itís rare enough to actually NEED an instrument approach, let alone an autoland. The last time I did an instrument approach at my base was 4.5 years ago.

Much more likely to be given a funny vector or have to dodge some weather, so need to disconnect the automatics and do some of that pilot stuff.
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Old 8th Jan 2021, 07:23
  #267 (permalink)  
 
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Any landing on JFK runways 13 L and R also need a hand flown curved approach. And there are many others.
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Old 8th Jan 2021, 07:33
  #268 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
For the people who prefer higher levels of automation on the line, when do yo work on raw data skills? Is it in the simulator every 6-12 months? And if so, do the instructors make allowances for the fact that you may not have done it since your last sim session?
I don't prefer higher levels of automation on the line, I prefer higher levels of automation when they are appropriate. There is a time, place and especially purpose for every style. But after 15 years of ****-ups, automation has helped me out pretty neatly than it got me into troubles. And pilot skills got the crew in troubles more often than automation did.

In general, there is an overestimation of ones flying abilities and an underestimation of the computers flying abilities. I read a lot of "we do this and that" on this page, but if you would have to grade... it's a bit like navy carier landings I would say. They all landed on the deck, eventually, one way or the other. But not sure if the LSO liked the result.


Enjoy the manual flying while you can, it's not forbidden, but it's a concious decision as well. I enjoy it, I love it, I do it.
Automation is a tool. Use it. I love it, I do it.
Your ego can be a dangerous threat. Avoid it.
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Old 8th Jan 2021, 12:38
  #269 (permalink)  
 
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Enjoy the manual flying while you can, it's not forbidden,


It is still actively discouraged in some airlines in Asia and the Middle East. I recall clearly a paragraph in the 737 Operations Manual of Germania airline many years ago which stated "Under no circumstances will manual flying be attempted apart from takeoff and landing."
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Old 9th Jan 2021, 06:56
  #270 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Centaurus View Post
It is still actively discouraged in some airlines in Asia and the Middle East. I recall clearly a paragraph in the 737 Operations Manual of Germania airline many years ago which stated "Under no circumstances will manual flying be attempted apart from takeoff and landing."
The question was about raw data skills. That refers to more than simply manual flying (which was maybe not so clear in my answer).

In the original topic a comparison is made between RNAV approaches that have to be flown with the FD and NDB approaches flown through old-school habits (I think it was at least), and situational awareness is thrown in the pool of reasoning. This is a very narrow vision unfortunately, I challenge everyone to go back, practice the heck out of their skills, and fly the approaches old-school with so-called "augmented" situational awareness. There is a strange connection between raw data and situational awareness, for some reason people still prefer to use old school HSI indications and dare to claim their situational awareness was better "back in the day". On top, they want to do all that in manual flight.

Manual flying skills and use of automation are not connected. Use of FD does not reduce your situational awareness. It should improve. If you think it's not the case, that is your problem. The whole idea of automation is to free up your brain so you can use it more efficient. Automation has brought us improvements. If you don't understand how that is achieved in RNP approaches, you have some study work to do. Because our goal is safety, and old school raw data approaches are not up to the safety standards of mondern aviation. And your flying skills are not going to change that.

That airlines don't train pilots efficiently or correctly on modern navigation, like current PBN procedures... now that is a whole other discussion yes...
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Old 9th Jan 2021, 07:23
  #271 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Centaurus View Post
It is still actively discouraged in some airlines in Asia and the Middle East. I recall clearly a paragraph in the 737 Operations Manual of Germania airline many years ago which stated "Under no circumstances will manual flying be attempted apart from takeoff and landing."
I wonder how can the authorities allow airlines to implement such restrictions... smh
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Old 9th Jan 2021, 09:38
  #272 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by BraceBrace View Post
The question was about raw data skills. That refers to more than simply manual flying (which was maybe not so clear in my answer).

In the original topic a comparison is made between RNAV approaches that have to be flown with the FD and NDB approaches flown through old-school habits (I think it was at least), and situational awareness is thrown in the pool of reasoning. This is a very narrow vision unfortunately, I challenge everyone to go back, practice the heck out of their skills, and fly the approaches old-school with so-called "augmented" situational awareness. There is a strange connection between raw data and situational awareness, for some reason people still prefer to use old school HSI indications and dare to claim their situational awareness was better "back in the day". On top, they want to do all that in manual flight.

Manual flying skills and use of automation are not connected. Use of FD does not reduce your situational awareness. It should improve. If you think it's not the case, that is your problem. The whole idea of automation is to free up your brain so you can use it more efficient. Automation has brought us improvements. If you don't understand how that is achieved in RNP approaches, you have some study work to do. Because our goal is safety, and old school raw data approaches are not up to the safety standards of mondern aviation. And your flying skills are not going to change that.

That airlines don't train pilots efficiently or correctly on modern navigation, like current PBN procedures... now that is a whole other discussion yes...
Well put BraceBrace
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Old 9th Jan 2021, 12:40
  #273 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KayPam View Post
Any flight to Nice (NCE) RWY22 will require a curved final approach without automation. Surely you can still refuse visual or sidestep at the cost of a reduced operations efficacy, but some approaches remain and still require good manual handling skills.
Flights to Corsica might often require visual as well.
NCE is actually a good example. I wonder how long before they introduce RNP AR approaches to 22.

Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
Thatíll be quite dependent on where you fly. You do autolands quite often. At my base, itís rare enough to actually NEED an instrument approach, let alone an autoland. The last time I did an instrument approach at my base was 4.5 years ago.
The original argument was that there is a need to fly a visual approach or a raw data instrument approach a lot of times. I presume an instrument approach is available to your base, should you need one?
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Old 9th Jan 2021, 13:09
  #274 (permalink)  
 
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Manual flying skills and use of automation are not connected. Use of FD does not reduce your situational awareness. It should improve.
Suggest you read the accident report on Flash Airlines Boeing 737-300 Registration CU-ZCF and then reflect on your post. There are countless other similar accidents where poor instrument flying ability coupled with contributory cause of automation dependancy have resulted in fatal accidents.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Airlines_Flight_604
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Old 9th Jan 2021, 15:51
  #275 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FlyingStone View Post
The original argument was that there is a need to fly a visual approach or a raw data instrument approach a lot of times. I presume an instrument approach is available to your base, should you need one?
Yes, IAPs are available. I was just expanding on the point that CAT 3 can be quite rare in some places.
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Old 9th Jan 2021, 15:59
  #276 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder how long before they introduce RNP AR approaches to 22.
We already have one, its a visual approach but it takes the aircraft to the runway and the autopilot can be used down to 250ft. The company's intention is that every runway that requires a visual or circling approach will have a similar procedure, Gibraltar, Pisa, Genoa and Corfu and no doubt some others already have them. Use of them is "recommended" and I have to say they work extremely but personally I think it is a shame, these where destinations where you actually had to be able to fly the aircraft reasonably well and now it can be done with the push of a button. There will come a time in the not too distant future where a lot of airline pilots wouldn't be able to fly these sorts of approaches even if they had to. A lot, in both seats, already struggle which is precisely why these sorts of procedures are being introduced, it is deemed safer than letting crews do it manually.

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Old 10th Jan 2021, 07:24
  #277 (permalink)  
 
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Pilots who insist on flying raw data in all sorts of conditions just to prove something are a pain in the arse and lower the safety margins in a day to day operation. Sure handily when conditions are appropriate but I have always felt it is exaggerated saying we lose our skills unless we continually practice. I have always found the flying of a visual approach a couple of times a month combined with the hand flying work in the sim is more than enough to maintain the required level of skill.
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Old 10th Jan 2021, 08:35
  #278 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Max Angle View Post
We already have one, its a visual approach but it takes the aircraft to the runway and the autopilot can be used down to 250ft. The company's intention is that every runway that requires a visual or circling approach will have a similar procedure, Gibraltar, Pisa, Genoa and Corfu and no doubt some others already have them. Use of them is "recommended" and I have to say they work extremely but personally I think it is a shame, these where destinations where you actually had to be able to fly the aircraft reasonably well and now it can be done with the push of a button. There will come a time in the not too distant future where a lot of airline pilots wouldn't be able to fly these sorts of approaches even if they had to. A lot, in both seats, already struggle which is precisely why these sorts of procedures are being introduced, it is deemed safer than letting crews do it manually.
An astronaut comes back from a 6-month stay on the ISS. They struggle walking.
NASA gives them an exosqueletton. They won't be able to walk again without the exosqueletton except if they train without it.
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Old 10th Jan 2021, 09:34
  #279 (permalink)  
 
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KP, you misjudge the difference between muscle use and brain use.
Train to use the brian, then continue to use it.
Automation is not a brian, it has not been 'trained', and will never improve with use, but it is good enough for most situations envisaged beforehand, but not all situations which our (untrained) brains throw at it afterwards.
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Old 10th Jan 2021, 21:04
  #280 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion View Post
Pilots who insist on flying raw data in all sorts of conditions just to prove something are a pain in the arse and lower the safety margins in a day to day operation. Sure handily when conditions are appropriate but I have always felt it is exaggerated saying we lose our skills unless we continually practice. I have always found the flying of a visual approach a couple of times a month combined with the hand flying work in the sim is more than enough to maintain the required level of skill.
Perhaps your skills are above average. Mine are average (at least I like to think so).
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