A320 calling FCU actions
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Vilas the document you pasted/posted is full of inaccuracies including the ones I have already pointed out. When the approach phase is activated how can you say "Speed XXX magenta"? This makes no sense. In relation to the approach phase the only magenta speed on the PFD would be target Vapp which is only displayed when final landing configuration is reached.
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mcdude
I don't know how many times you have activated approach and yet you failed to notice what happens. When you activate approach the speed target Vapp appears in magenta at the bottom of the speed tape and that is what you are supposed to check. Similarly when you reach acceleration altitude your speed target becomes 250KTS and is shown in magenta on top of the speed tape. Obviously when you reach the target it won't be shown there any more. Spend some time understanding the system before ridiculing the manufacturer's recommendation. And what else is included in your full of inaccuracies?
I don't know how many times you have activated approach and yet you failed to notice what happens. When you activate approach the speed target Vapp appears in magenta at the bottom of the speed tape and that is what you are supposed to check. Similarly when you reach acceleration altitude your speed target becomes 250KTS and is shown in magenta on top of the speed tape. Obviously when you reach the target it won't be shown there any more. Spend some time understanding the system before ridiculing the manufacturer's recommendation. And what else is included in your full of inaccuracies?
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Speaking to an ground engineer once. He told me "Anyone who says they are an expert regarding Airbus, unless they work for Airbus, be very wary of them as Airbus have the ability to insert a floppy disc and change software"
The only people who know Airbus inside out are those that build them.
The only people who know Airbus inside out are those that build them.
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I don't know how many times you have activated approach and yet you failed to notice what happens. When you activate approach the speed target Vapp appears in magenta at the bottom of the speed tape and that is what you are supposed to check.
Calling the color of the altitude target is good procedure but calling the color of the speed is too much especially when "managed speed" and "selected speed" are the appropriate calls.
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Instead of repeating activate approach checking at the bottom of speed tape v app and confirming approach activated is the new change in AB SOP and it will always appear in managed speed. Managed or select speed are sure appropriate calls but as long as you do so after checking appropriate colour because otherwise it has'n happened.
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Instead of repeating activate approach checking at the bottom of speed tape v app and confirming approach activated is the new change in AB SOP and it will always appear in managed speed. Managed or select speed are sure appropriate calls but as long as you do so after checking appropriate colour because otherwise it has'n happened.
The approach phase can be active, whatever the color on the speed tape.
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@ vilas
If you activate approach it has happend. It doesn't depend on if you have checked it or not. And the speed surely doesn't appear as magenta every time after activation.
A32F can be flown also in selected modes, believe it or not
Airbus may have some recomendations for instructors but as long as it hasn't been implemented in FCOM, it doesn't exist. FCOM is governing document for all if the company doesn't have own SOP. FCOM provides procedures that we all have to follow (except maybe instructors from Airbus)
If you activate approach it has happend. It doesn't depend on if you have checked it or not. And the speed surely doesn't appear as magenta every time after activation.
A32F can be flown also in selected modes, believe it or not
Airbus may have some recomendations for instructors but as long as it hasn't been implemented in FCOM, it doesn't exist. FCOM is governing document for all if the company doesn't have own SOP. FCOM provides procedures that we all have to follow (except maybe instructors from Airbus)
Last edited by Cak; 30th Jun 2015 at 17:03.
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Some pilots say
"speed is selected, activate approach phase"
This is a habit to avoid reducing speed before they wish, but to activate the approach phase already so you don't have surprises later.
I always activate it early, except in the rare case when I will fly the whole procedure and there are speed constraints.
"speed is selected, activate approach phase"
This is a habit to avoid reducing speed before they wish, but to activate the approach phase already so you don't have surprises later.
I always activate it early, except in the rare case when I will fly the whole procedure and there are speed constraints.
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Hi all
I think things are getting mixed up and getting unnecessarily personal. The original question was hey guys how you go about this? So all of you gave your company procedures and opinions and I gave the airbus procedure. I was asked to produce some document and I copy pasted. It has been called erroneous, ridiculed, defied and not mandatory etc. Just as your procedures do not have any mandate outside your company aircraft the airbus procedure also is not compulsory unless operator accepts it. I presently train crew of five airlines. Do I teach them this procedure? No. Because their SOP doesn't have this procedure. We only discuss on PP nobody changes his procedures. The second part is about system knowledge. Whenever you activate approach FMGC enters approach phase and Vapp will appear below as the new target. The only exception is if you are in select speed. Those who say it does not appear every time are wrong. You can refer to FCOM. Similarly when SRS changes to CLB after T/O speed target appears in magenta on top of speed tape. If you don't think so check next time you fly. About checking speed colour, I have experienced when speed is pulled or pushed some time it doesn't happen and needs to be done again. How would you confirm this? Whether you say speed managed or magenta is not important but checking the change of colour to confirm is.
CONF iture and Cak if PNF forgets to press second time how do you know it is activated? and any airbus can be flown in selected modes what is so unbelievable about it?
I think things are getting mixed up and getting unnecessarily personal. The original question was hey guys how you go about this? So all of you gave your company procedures and opinions and I gave the airbus procedure. I was asked to produce some document and I copy pasted. It has been called erroneous, ridiculed, defied and not mandatory etc. Just as your procedures do not have any mandate outside your company aircraft the airbus procedure also is not compulsory unless operator accepts it. I presently train crew of five airlines. Do I teach them this procedure? No. Because their SOP doesn't have this procedure. We only discuss on PP nobody changes his procedures. The second part is about system knowledge. Whenever you activate approach FMGC enters approach phase and Vapp will appear below as the new target. The only exception is if you are in select speed. Those who say it does not appear every time are wrong. You can refer to FCOM. Similarly when SRS changes to CLB after T/O speed target appears in magenta on top of speed tape. If you don't think so check next time you fly. About checking speed colour, I have experienced when speed is pulled or pushed some time it doesn't happen and needs to be done again. How would you confirm this? Whether you say speed managed or magenta is not important but checking the change of colour to confirm is.
CONF iture and Cak if PNF forgets to press second time how do you know it is activated? and any airbus can be flown in selected modes what is so unbelievable about it?
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Vilas , the problem is that you didn't give Airbus procedure , at least not till challenged . Most others did specify that "their company ...."
.
My issue is you continuously , whether intentionally or not , post strongly worded statements ( need , must etc. ) . No problem with discussing , but when you say (need , must) without qualifying your statement as "Standard Airbus" as opposed to FCOM/FCTM procedures practiced by many operators , then expect the statements to be challenged because you are not stating an option .You are stating it IS so !
BTW ,the document posted still does stand up to scrutiny . Whether it is that you cannot or choose not to post it( not copy/paste), or give a reference , with an Airbus logo , then I am afraid that it cannot validate your argument that it is even an Airbus procedure .
Sure. One doesn't read FCU but PFD changes on FMA, HDG, Altitude, speed selected or managed by change of colour needs to be called.
My issue is you continuously , whether intentionally or not , post strongly worded statements ( need , must etc. ) . No problem with discussing , but when you say (need , must) without qualifying your statement as "Standard Airbus" as opposed to FCOM/FCTM procedures practiced by many operators , then expect the statements to be challenged because you are not stating an option .You are stating it IS so !
BTW ,the document posted still does stand up to scrutiny . Whether it is that you cannot or choose not to post it( not copy/paste), or give a reference , with an Airbus logo , then I am afraid that it cannot validate your argument that it is even an Airbus procedure .
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Stone_cold
Well I think we have made some progress. You should distinguish between what I think and what I state from the manufacturer. The point is the choice of accepting or rejecting always remains with you. The topic at hand is not what I think but stated by airbus in airbus supply Flight training standardisation bulletin Dec2013. I am unable to attach it so I copy pasted relevant portion. It won't help even if I could attaché because you are still bound by your company procedures.You stated you also have many things which you can post please go ahead I would welcome that. Idea is to enhance our knowledge and awareness about why and how we do things. I raised a few points in my post I would like to have your views on that. I would enjoy a professional discussion
Well I think we have made some progress. You should distinguish between what I think and what I state from the manufacturer. The point is the choice of accepting or rejecting always remains with you. The topic at hand is not what I think but stated by airbus in airbus supply Flight training standardisation bulletin Dec2013. I am unable to attach it so I copy pasted relevant portion. It won't help even if I could attaché because you are still bound by your company procedures.You stated you also have many things which you can post please go ahead I would welcome that. Idea is to enhance our knowledge and awareness about why and how we do things. I raised a few points in my post I would like to have your views on that. I would enjoy a professional discussion
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vilas
Whether you press it for the second time or not, you cannot check it on PFD if you are flying with selected speed
And on all airbuses with FMS 1, there is no option to confirm activation anyway
I totally agree with you that the color and target are changing when you switch between managed or selected and that it should be checked when you make selection on FCU
My point is that most of instructors have never been in Airbus and have never been trained there so they don't have access to that document you have mentioned. Also for most of us FCOM and FCTM are the only documents from which we can learn whether you are just begining or you are an experienced guy. And in neither of them is written that you have to announce the color of the speed target. It only says that everything should be crosschecked but it doesn't explain how exactly. And anyway it's useless if you activate while flying selected speed
Whether you press it for the second time or not, you cannot check it on PFD if you are flying with selected speed
And on all airbuses with FMS 1, there is no option to confirm activation anyway
I totally agree with you that the color and target are changing when you switch between managed or selected and that it should be checked when you make selection on FCU
My point is that most of instructors have never been in Airbus and have never been trained there so they don't have access to that document you have mentioned. Also for most of us FCOM and FCTM are the only documents from which we can learn whether you are just begining or you are an experienced guy. And in neither of them is written that you have to announce the color of the speed target. It only says that everything should be crosschecked but it doesn't explain how exactly. And anyway it's useless if you activate while flying selected speed
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Cak
That exactly my point that it is useless to activate in select speed and in managed speed Vapp will always appear every time. FCOM will confirm it. I know every one does not have access to airbussupply that does not mean it is incorrect. We are exchanging information. By all means why and how can be discussed but at least be correct in what you are saying.
That exactly my point that it is useless to activate in select speed and in managed speed Vapp will always appear every time. FCOM will confirm it. I know every one does not have access to airbussupply that does not mean it is incorrect. We are exchanging information. By all means why and how can be discussed but at least be correct in what you are saying.
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Originally Posted by vilas
Those who say it does not appear every time are wrong.
How can you still state so after you've finally acknowledged the exception under selected speed ... ?
CONF iture and Cak if PNF forgets to press second time how do you know it is activated?
But hitting managed speed later in the approach will tell the story, and a chance to still activate the approach phase if missed earlier.
That exactly my point that it is useless to activate in select speed
If I understand it correctly, you are strictly a simulator instructor with no experience of real flying, at least on the Airbus ... ?
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vilas
You get me wrong. I don't think at all it's useless to activate when flying selected. I only said that it's useless to check the activation on PFD if the speed is selected, because you cannot check it in that case.
I personally use selected speed in most of the time. Computer is a computer and it still cannot think like a human being. For computer every airport is the same, it just follows database. If you often fly to some airports which use vectoring, computer just cannot cope with that because it cannot predict vectors. And man can expect what the vectors will be and arrange his approach accordingly.
If I am not speed restricted, I can play with the speed and make whole or most of descent and whole approach on idle thrust. During approach if you need little bit higher rate, you can add some speed and if you need to reduce the rate, you just decrease the speed. With managed speed, you will be most of the time in speed mode and accordigly the fuel burn will be higher than on idle. If you save 50 or 100kg per approach, multiply it by every flight you make throughout the year and you will save big money for your company. The bad thing is that only few companies award you for this
Computer is just not good enough yet to fly descent and approach on idle thrust
You get me wrong. I don't think at all it's useless to activate when flying selected. I only said that it's useless to check the activation on PFD if the speed is selected, because you cannot check it in that case.
I personally use selected speed in most of the time. Computer is a computer and it still cannot think like a human being. For computer every airport is the same, it just follows database. If you often fly to some airports which use vectoring, computer just cannot cope with that because it cannot predict vectors. And man can expect what the vectors will be and arrange his approach accordingly.
If I am not speed restricted, I can play with the speed and make whole or most of descent and whole approach on idle thrust. During approach if you need little bit higher rate, you can add some speed and if you need to reduce the rate, you just decrease the speed. With managed speed, you will be most of the time in speed mode and accordigly the fuel burn will be higher than on idle. If you save 50 or 100kg per approach, multiply it by every flight you make throughout the year and you will save big money for your company. The bad thing is that only few companies award you for this
Computer is just not good enough yet to fly descent and approach on idle thrust
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CONF iture
There are quiet a few things that you don't understand correctly and I am not an airbus pilot is just another one of them. I have flown not one but three airbuses. So you won't get anything out of that.
Select speed the target is on FCU. But normally when in managed one glance at bottom of speed tape you can confirm app. activation. However if you like a longer way or that's the way your company does it I have no problem with it. That does not make it compulsory for others.
Cak, the issue at hand is only approach activation and confirmation so I am not going to comment on the descent and conduct of the approach. Some would activate first, confirm and then use select speed till required. There is another document on effective use of FMS. where you can create altitude constraints for better control of managed descent and approach. But I am not entering into it.
There are quiet a few things that you don't understand correctly and I am not an airbus pilot is just another one of them. I have flown not one but three airbuses. So you won't get anything out of that.
Select speed the target is on FCU. But normally when in managed one glance at bottom of speed tape you can confirm app. activation. However if you like a longer way or that's the way your company does it I have no problem with it. That does not make it compulsory for others.
Cak, the issue at hand is only approach activation and confirmation so I am not going to comment on the descent and conduct of the approach. Some would activate first, confirm and then use select speed till required. There is another document on effective use of FMS. where you can create altitude constraints for better control of managed descent and approach. But I am not entering into it.
Villas,
As always you get the technical information but miss the point completely. It's not you, its just cultural. To say "Airbus said in 2013" is cool and congrats for an awesome memory. However to view it in isolation is ill informed.
What you are stating, and even the bulletin at the end of the day is TECHNIQUE. Anything outside of FCOM is technique or company SOP.
Looking for the magenta speed target on the tape is technique. Personally I use the PROG title to confirm FMGC flight phase.
Selecting speed on final is strategic. Too many times I have seen people manage speed only to have the target jump to 250 kts which is why I wouldn't endorse your said technique. Besides, it's so 2013.
What's that old saying.. " procedures are for the ashes range of fools and the guidance of wise men". If we were to consider the concepts of rule, knowledge and skill based decision making and error management you will see it is truly a double edged sword.
As long as the guy next to me keeps me in the loop I don't really care what he says. Some would says that's unprofessional... I just think there are more important concepts and ideas to worry about flying a jet.
As always you get the technical information but miss the point completely. It's not you, its just cultural. To say "Airbus said in 2013" is cool and congrats for an awesome memory. However to view it in isolation is ill informed.
What you are stating, and even the bulletin at the end of the day is TECHNIQUE. Anything outside of FCOM is technique or company SOP.
Looking for the magenta speed target on the tape is technique. Personally I use the PROG title to confirm FMGC flight phase.
Selecting speed on final is strategic. Too many times I have seen people manage speed only to have the target jump to 250 kts which is why I wouldn't endorse your said technique. Besides, it's so 2013.
What's that old saying.. " procedures are for the ashes range of fools and the guidance of wise men". If we were to consider the concepts of rule, knowledge and skill based decision making and error management you will see it is truly a double edged sword.
As long as the guy next to me keeps me in the loop I don't really care what he says. Some would says that's unprofessional... I just think there are more important concepts and ideas to worry about flying a jet.
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Originally Posted by vilas
There are quiet a few things that you don't understand correctly
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Bula
Call it technique or what you like. I just stated airbus brought the change in 2013 and it stays as far as they are concerned. Take it or leave it. About the speed jumping, as I said before, if you activate and then fly select it will not happen. Now about your adage, I will rephrase it " SOP s are for the guidance of the wise and compliance by idiots". sounds very chic and smart. If you go through the accident data base you will realise they are quite a few times famous last words. Only birds fly by instincts Humans have no instincts in the air and you abandon SOPs to your own peril. Some of them are actually written in blood. They are surely revised but not by fits and starts.
Call it technique or what you like. I just stated airbus brought the change in 2013 and it stays as far as they are concerned. Take it or leave it. About the speed jumping, as I said before, if you activate and then fly select it will not happen. Now about your adage, I will rephrase it " SOP s are for the guidance of the wise and compliance by idiots". sounds very chic and smart. If you go through the accident data base you will realise they are quite a few times famous last words. Only birds fly by instincts Humans have no instincts in the air and you abandon SOPs to your own peril. Some of them are actually written in blood. They are surely revised but not by fits and starts.