A320 calling FCU actions
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: W of 30W
Originally Posted by vilas
If you have nothing more to add we can move on.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Asia
my question stems from check pilots imposing the calling out of FCU knob handling by PF, with AP ON,
to me this is incorrect, and I believe it is a miss interpretation of the SOP standard callouts (Actions Commanded by PF ).
I being english conversant, readily understand the word command as being an order given to the PM, and not a self performed action,
but i believe these check pilots new to the airbus, take it to be a "command" to the auto flight system.
I am trying to bring this issue to the training department but I can find another tool to make them understand that you don't say anything about the FCU, but rather announce the chance in the FMA.
I hope some one can help me with that.
take care.
to me this is incorrect, and I believe it is a miss interpretation of the SOP standard callouts (Actions Commanded by PF ).
I being english conversant, readily understand the word command as being an order given to the PM, and not a self performed action,
but i believe these check pilots new to the airbus, take it to be a "command" to the auto flight system.
I am trying to bring this issue to the training department but I can find another tool to make them understand that you don't say anything about the FCU, but rather announce the chance in the FMA.
I hope some one can help me with that.
take care.
Joined: Apr 2011
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From: France
MD83
As a former SFI A320 at AIRBUS TRAINING CENTER TOULOUSE we used to request PF call out at every action on FCU when A/P is ON just to keep PNF/PM in the loop .
We had an exemple:
Southern arrival at LFLL(LYON) if you are clear for approach very early and then set Altitude 3000 if you PULL ALT knob you will descend too early and EGPWS warning will be triggered when reaching 3000ft. If you PUSH (manage ALT)you will have an ALT CSTR and your FCU at 3000 will give a magenta 7000 (or higher)on PFD and the aircraft will follow step by step the vertical path required by procedure (don't forget to check ALT CSTR in FMGC)
As a former SFI A320 at AIRBUS TRAINING CENTER TOULOUSE we used to request PF call out at every action on FCU when A/P is ON just to keep PNF/PM in the loop .
We had an exemple:
Southern arrival at LFLL(LYON) if you are clear for approach very early and then set Altitude 3000 if you PULL ALT knob you will descend too early and EGPWS warning will be triggered when reaching 3000ft. If you PUSH (manage ALT)you will have an ALT CSTR and your FCU at 3000 will give a magenta 7000 (or higher)on PFD and the aircraft will follow step by step the vertical path required by procedure (don't forget to check ALT CSTR in FMGC)
Joined: Jan 2014
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From: N5109.2W10.5
we used to request PF call out at every action on FCU when A/P is ON just to keep PNF/PM
On the line, the calls of "Pull Standard" or "Push QNH" for the setting of the Altimeter became useless because about 50% were in the wrong direction. So we now simply say "Set Standard" etc.
Similarly, whether you push or pull the ALT knob in the correct direction is determined by whether you have OP DES or DES on the FMA with ALT Magenta showing.
Joined: Feb 2010
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From: Right there...
MD83FO,
I am pretty sure you know where to find the info in the FCOM but this is my two cents.
I am pretty sure you know where to find the info in the FCOM but this is my two cents.
FCOM PRO-NOR-SOP-90 P 1/12 18 MAR 15
GENERAL
The following commands do not necessarily initiate a guidance mode change, eg: selected to managed/managed to selected. The intent is to ensure clear, consistent, standard communication between crewmembers.
All actions performed on the FCU and the MCDU must be checked on the PFD and ND ( eg.:"FL350 blue","FL 200 magenta") Ensure that the correct FCU knob is used, then verify indications on the PFD/ND.
FCOM PRO-NOR-SOP-90 P 3/12 18 MAR 15
FMAThe PF should call out any FMA change, unless specified differently (eg.CAT II & III task sharing).
Therefore the PF should announce:
- All armed modes with the associated color (e.g. blue, magenta):"G/S blue","LOC blue".
- All active modes without the associated color (e.g. green, white):"NAV","ALT".
The PM should check and respond, "CHECKED" to all FMA changes called out by the PF.
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Wanderlust
MD
By now it should be clear to you that you cannot learn from PP anything other than how other's do their thing. You may quote Airbus technique, SOP, any logic but nobody is really interested. Some critisize even without understandin the subject. You are correct you do announce changes to Flight modes (select/managed) and FMA and only from the PFD because unless you see it there it hasn't happened but still you will have to follow your airline SOP.
By now it should be clear to you that you cannot learn from PP anything other than how other's do their thing. You may quote Airbus technique, SOP, any logic but nobody is really interested. Some critisize even without understandin the subject. You are correct you do announce changes to Flight modes (select/managed) and FMA and only from the PFD because unless you see it there it hasn't happened but still you will have to follow your airline SOP.
Last edited by vilas; 11th July 2015 at 07:36.
Mmmmm PPruuune!
Joined: Jul 1998
Posts: 600
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From: UK
Never really understood AB logic when it comes to App Mode.
Magenta = managed in all phases except App.
Anyone from AB have any idea why when App is actioned the magenta speed command doesn't overlay GD when clean, F when config 1/2 and then go to Vapp at F3(if selected) or F4
Or would that be too logical?
Just curious!
We only call any boxed items on the FMA any changes occuring as a consequence of MCDU management constraints (alt,FL or spd) are not required to be called (personally I do mention it as I consider it good airmanship- oops am I still allowed to use that word?)
Magenta = managed in all phases except App.
Anyone from AB have any idea why when App is actioned the magenta speed command doesn't overlay GD when clean, F when config 1/2 and then go to Vapp at F3(if selected) or F4
Or would that be too logical?
Just curious!
We only call any boxed items on the FMA any changes occuring as a consequence of MCDU management constraints (alt,FL or spd) are not required to be called (personally I do mention it as I consider it good airmanship- oops am I still allowed to use that word?)
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Above the Horizon
FCU Actions
Vilas,
The calls regarding activation of Approach phase is
PF "Activate Approach phase "
PM "Approach phrase activated"
There is nothing like "Activating Approach phase"
And to all, let us please keep this forum civil. No personal attacks on anyone please.
The calls regarding activation of Approach phase is
PF "Activate Approach phase "
PM "Approach phrase activated"
There is nothing like "Activating Approach phase"
And to all, let us please keep this forum civil. No personal attacks on anyone please.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 127
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From: Above the Horizon
FCU Actions
Vilas,
The calls regarding activation of Approach phase is
PF "Activate Approach phase "
PM "Approach phrase activated"
There is nothing like "Activating Approach phase"
And to all, let us please keep this forum civil. No personal attacks on anyone please.
The calls regarding activation of Approach phase is
PF "Activate Approach phase "
PM "Approach phrase activated"
There is nothing like "Activating Approach phase"
And to all, let us please keep this forum civil. No personal attacks on anyone please.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 529
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From: Asia
Hi Vilas, my 10 airplane new company prides it self in being a strict follower of airbus untouched SOP, but once in a while some instructor introduces "recommended practices", one being the calling out of FCU knobs, "pull speed 250, pull heading 180" how can i make them understand that these are commands to the PM while the autopilot is off, and not PF AP ON.
They take "commands" to be to the autopilot not to the PM.
They take "commands" to be to the autopilot not to the PM.
Joined: Feb 2010
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From: Right there...
MD83F,
Cak provided the reference you are looking for. It states that FCU inputs are performed by the PM (upon PF request) when the AP is OFF and by the PF when the AP is ON.
Cak,
The FCU inputs must be announce by the PF using the PFD/FMA target and mode.
Cak provided the reference you are looking for. It states that FCU inputs are performed by the PM (upon PF request) when the AP is OFF and by the PF when the AP is ON.
Cak,
The FCU inputs must be announce by the PF using the PFD/FMA target and mode.
Joined: Nov 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: UK
I got bored with the fighting, and jumped to the end of the thread, so I might have missed this being mentioned:
In the London TMA and on initial approach we are often under radar vectors and in selected speed at about the time when we activate the approach. In fact some of our trainers advise us to activate the approach soon after going to selected speed - so we don't forget - and this can be 50 miles out for example.
In the London TMA and on initial approach we are often under radar vectors and in selected speed at about the time when we activate the approach. In fact some of our trainers advise us to activate the approach soon after going to selected speed - so we don't forget - and this can be 50 miles out for example.
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Wanderlust
Activation of approach is passing the speed control to automation. During vectors if speed restriction is imposed you can activate and fly select speed. No problem. The thread as usual got derailed.
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From: pre-dep area
MD83FO
Make them aware, that we are NOT SUPPOSED TO CALL OUT FCU ACTIONS.
We are supposed to call out all mode changes (via the FMA) and parameter changes. We are to locate the proper button/knob on the FCU and perform the necessary action with reference to the PFD.
That is why, with the AP OFF, the PF orders the action and the PNF performs it - AND THEN THE PNF ANNOUNCES THE FMA CHANGE because that's what he's looking at. PF merely responds with CHECK.
Ex. (AP OFF):
PF: Set HDG 350
PNF: HDG 350 Set
PF: Check
Rule is, whoever manipulates the FCU makes the announcement, other guy confirms it.
In your example, the pilot shall locate the button, pull it and announces what he sees in the PFD: "Speed selected (because it is BLUE), 250kts" (nowhere in the PFD can he find the word PULL).
Make them aware, that we are NOT SUPPOSED TO CALL OUT FCU ACTIONS.
We are supposed to call out all mode changes (via the FMA) and parameter changes. We are to locate the proper button/knob on the FCU and perform the necessary action with reference to the PFD.
That is why, with the AP OFF, the PF orders the action and the PNF performs it - AND THEN THE PNF ANNOUNCES THE FMA CHANGE because that's what he's looking at. PF merely responds with CHECK.
Ex. (AP OFF):
PF: Set HDG 350
PNF: HDG 350 Set
PF: Check
Rule is, whoever manipulates the FCU makes the announcement, other guy confirms it.
In your example, the pilot shall locate the button, pull it and announces what he sees in the PFD: "Speed selected (because it is BLUE), 250kts" (nowhere in the PFD can he find the word PULL).
Last edited by capt. solipsist; 29th July 2015 at 12:17.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 39
From: Wanderlust
Greek God
When you activate approach the final target speed i.e. Vapp is displayed in magenta(if managed). It is much the same when SRS changes to CLB/OPCLB the target speed 250 in magenta is displayed. Perhaps since there is no reason to hold on to flaps the speed keeps increasing and you keep retracting and when clean 250 will be maintained. On approach it is the other way round but the speeds are held at S or F to give you option of holding on to it.
When you activate approach the final target speed i.e. Vapp is displayed in magenta(if managed). It is much the same when SRS changes to CLB/OPCLB the target speed 250 in magenta is displayed. Perhaps since there is no reason to hold on to flaps the speed keeps increasing and you keep retracting and when clean 250 will be maintained. On approach it is the other way round but the speeds are held at S or F to give you option of holding on to it.
