Intersection takeoff in LVO
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they don't specify the number of lights to be counted
Why do you think that the section of runway that you're on isn't relevant?
The regulations don't state where the 15m spacing must start either.
Oh, it's not just my current airline but the two previous as well.
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Hi Lord Spandex Masher,
Because my ground speed won't be in excess of 60 kts during the acceleration on that section of the runway.
My two previous employers used the rules as written, without telling us how many lights to count. The maths was down to us.
Why do you think that the section of runway that you're on isn't relevant?
My two previous employers used the rules as written, without telling us how many lights to count. The maths was down to us.
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Look, the 15m spaced lights are the ground facilities required. The RVRs are minimum visual ranges required. Two different requirements but they are not mutually exclusive. You need both.
Really? How can you tell? What about something like a Q400 which will be dong well over 80kts, at lightweights, within 300m. They aren't allowed to do low vis take offs?
Because my ground speed won't be in excess of 60 kts during the acceleration on that section of the runway.
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Hi Lord Spandex Masher,
I agree and you will have them both after the touch down point and thereafter.
I don't fly those.
L1011s, B747s A320s are never doing more than 60 kts by the time you can see the 15m lights.
We are going around in circles. I suggest you use your OPS manuals and I'll use mine.
You need both.
What about something like a Q400 which will be dong well over 80kts, at lightweights, within 300m.
L1011s, B747s A320s are never doing more than 60 kts by the time you can see the 15m lights.
We are going around in circles. I suggest you use your OPS manuals and I'll use mine.
Last edited by rudderrudderrat; 31st Oct 2013 at 15:48.
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I agree and you will have them both after the touch down point and thereafter.
I don't fly those.
Where in your OPS manual does it say that you don't need to see 15m spaced HI center line lights?
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It's the same at any displaced threshold if there are no center line lights with 15m spacing, not specifically 08R at Gatwick. Manchester 23R is another.
So to confirm what you are saying:
- If you are doing more than 60kts (where'd that come from anyway?) before you reach the 15m spacing you can't carry out a LVTO?
- To rephrase the other question you ignored - Does your OPS manual state that you require 15m spacing HI center line lights to perform a LVTO?
So to confirm what you are saying:
- If you are doing more than 60kts (where'd that come from anyway?) before you reach the 15m spacing you can't carry out a LVTO?
- To rephrase the other question you ignored - Does your OPS manual state that you require 15m spacing HI center line lights to perform a LVTO?
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Hi Lord Spandex Masher,
No - I didn't say anything of the sort.
I said I will not be exceeding about 60kts by the time I can see the 15m RWCL lights.
The 60 kts is the RTO speed below which I can ignore stop end RVR reports (if they are below my minimum).
It is assumed we can maintain the runway centre line easily, with reduced visibility, below that speed. Similarly, on take off it is assumed we can maintain the centre line easily (below around 60 kts) with a 90 m visual segment available from the cockpit at the start of the take-off run.
I ignored it because the original was a stupid question.
It says "High intensity runway centreline lights spaced 15 m or less and high intensity edge lights spaced 60 m or less are in operation." no more and no less than the current regulations.
So to confirm what you are saying:
- If you are doing more than 60kts (where'd that come from anyway?) before you reach the 15m spacing you can't carry out a LVTO?
- If you are doing more than 60kts (where'd that come from anyway?) before you reach the 15m spacing you can't carry out a LVTO?
I said I will not be exceeding about 60kts by the time I can see the 15m RWCL lights.
The 60 kts is the RTO speed below which I can ignore stop end RVR reports (if they are below my minimum).
It is assumed we can maintain the runway centre line easily, with reduced visibility, below that speed. Similarly, on take off it is assumed we can maintain the centre line easily (below around 60 kts) with a 90 m visual segment available from the cockpit at the start of the take-off run.
To rephrase the other question you ignored - Does your OPS manual state that you require 15m spacing HI center line lights to perform a LVTO?
It says "High intensity runway centreline lights spaced 15 m or less and high intensity edge lights spaced 60 m or less are in operation." no more and no less than the current regulations.
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A perennial argument which comes up repeatedly. I've just done a sim course and they insisted that I taxi forward to the beginning of the 15m lights for an LVO TO. Of course I did because you don't want to get into an argument with the TRE on your LST but, really!?!
There is no requirement for me to count lights. If measured RVR is not available in the touchdown zone I may count lights and make an assessment but that's it! Nowhere in EU OPS does it say I must taxi forward to the 15m light; it simply says they must be in operation.
I think I'd make myself very unpopular if I wasted valuable runway time taxying forward before departure at Gatwick, Manchester are any other busy airport just because I read into the rules something which was not there!
I fully accept that those whose minds are made up are unlikely to alter their views because I don't agree with them. Likewise I'm not minded to alter my view; just thought I'd throw one more voice on th ecommon sense side of the debate!
There is no requirement for me to count lights. If measured RVR is not available in the touchdown zone I may count lights and make an assessment but that's it! Nowhere in EU OPS does it say I must taxi forward to the 15m light; it simply says they must be in operation.
I think I'd make myself very unpopular if I wasted valuable runway time taxying forward before departure at Gatwick, Manchester are any other busy airport just because I read into the rules something which was not there!
I fully accept that those whose minds are made up are unlikely to alter their views because I don't agree with them. Likewise I'm not minded to alter my view; just thought I'd throw one more voice on th ecommon sense side of the debate!
Last edited by 3 Point; 1st Nov 2013 at 18:16.
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And if you were? If the displaced threshold is longer? If you're light and empty and accelerate better? And you still haven't stated what others, who will be exceeding 60kts, should do!?
You still need both center line lights and RVRs to start a LVTO. Why else would it be a requirement in EUOPS?
You can't pick and choose chap.
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Hi Lord Spandex Masher,
I take it that you have never operated out of Manchester during LVOs.
Are you really a pilot?
"Manchester LVOs:
ATC LVP (RVR less than 600m)
- Reversion to a single RWY operation 23R or 05L. For any residual departures from
23L/05R, the centerline lights are spaced at 30m intervals which requires that, except where an AOC (air operator certificate) holder has less restrictive state authorised take-off minima, departures in RVR of less than 400m are not permitted.
- Departing ACFT: ATC will require departing ACFT to use the following CAT III
holding points:
RWY 23R: J1.
RWY 05L: A1."
And if you were? If the displaced threshold is longer?
Are you really a pilot?
"Manchester LVOs:
ATC LVP (RVR less than 600m)
- Reversion to a single RWY operation 23R or 05L. For any residual departures from
23L/05R, the centerline lights are spaced at 30m intervals which requires that, except where an AOC (air operator certificate) holder has less restrictive state authorised take-off minima, departures in RVR of less than 400m are not permitted.
- Departing ACFT: ATC will require departing ACFT to use the following CAT III
holding points:
RWY 23R: J1.
RWY 05L: A1."
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Spandex,
No where in EU-OPS or Part-ops does it mention a requirement to see 6 lights. Never has. It simply states a 90m visual segment. If your manual states that then it is an addition by your company.
3 sets of 30m is perfectly legal as all you are doing is establishing the 90m. To taxi forward and leave perfectly good runway behind is not required. That's the position of the last 5 airlines I have worked for.
No where in EU-OPS or Part-ops does it mention a requirement to see 6 lights. Never has. It simply states a 90m visual segment. If your manual states that then it is an addition by your company.
3 sets of 30m is perfectly legal as all you are doing is establishing the 90m. To taxi forward and leave perfectly good runway behind is not required. That's the position of the last 5 airlines I have worked for.
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8che, correct, like I've explained previously it is not a company requirement to count 6 lights (nowhere did I say it was either), they are merely clarifying that if there's a 90m visual segment you will see 6 lights. There's a difference.
But that is NOT the only requirement you need to carry out a LVTO.
Rudder, unfortunately I don't carry around a detailed map of Manchester. What's your point? Apart from not being able to answer questions and that 30m spaced centerline lights aren't approved for LVTOs
But that is NOT the only requirement you need to carry out a LVTO.
Rudder, unfortunately I don't carry around a detailed map of Manchester. What's your point? Apart from not being able to answer questions and that 30m spaced centerline lights aren't approved for LVTOs
Last edited by Lord Spandex Masher; 1st Nov 2013 at 22:56.
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Hi Lord Spandex Masher,
Then please explain ATC's logic of using Cat III holding point A1 for RW 05L.
I have provided the following links to "refresh" your memory.
LVO notes: EGCC%20Briefing.pdf
Runway:EGCC%20RWY.pdf
Taxi: EGCCtaxi.pdf
Edit: Thanks 8che & 3 Point.
I agree, I'm completely wasting my time with Spandex and shall not waste any more.
What's your point? Apart from not being able to answer questions and that 30m spaced centerline lights aren't approved for LVTOs
I have provided the following links to "refresh" your memory.
LVO notes: EGCC%20Briefing.pdf
Runway:EGCC%20RWY.pdf
Taxi: EGCCtaxi.pdf
Edit: Thanks 8che & 3 Point.
I agree, I'm completely wasting my time with Spandex and shall not waste any more.
Last edited by rudderrudderrat; 2nd Nov 2013 at 00:23. Reason: extra
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Rudderat your wasting your time.
Spandex is simply stuck on transmit and letting the detail of his manuals rule over sound airmanship .
I'll give it one more go.
Spandex for 125m takeoff (or 150m Cat D) when you enter a Cat2/3 runway you will need to see 6 lights or 3 sets of touch down lights ! Either gives you the 90 m you need. Once you have that your telling us you will taxi down a perfectly good runway past the larger and far more easier to see sets of touchdown lights to finally get to your all important 15m centre line lights ? That's ridiculous.
There are airports everywhere that have Cat/2/3 holding points leading onto displaced thresholds. For many that is your only way to enter the runway so how on earth would you then take into account the performance figures for your little trip down the runway ?
Spandex is simply stuck on transmit and letting the detail of his manuals rule over sound airmanship .
I'll give it one more go.
Spandex for 125m takeoff (or 150m Cat D) when you enter a Cat2/3 runway you will need to see 6 lights or 3 sets of touch down lights ! Either gives you the 90 m you need. Once you have that your telling us you will taxi down a perfectly good runway past the larger and far more easier to see sets of touchdown lights to finally get to your all important 15m centre line lights ? That's ridiculous.
There are airports everywhere that have Cat/2/3 holding points leading onto displaced thresholds. For many that is your only way to enter the runway so how on earth would you then take into account the performance figures for your little trip down the runway ?
Last edited by 8che; 2nd Nov 2013 at 00:27.
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Rudder, if you keep ignoring my questions I'll start to think you can't actually answer them.
The logic of using certain holding points in LVPs is to protect the ILS sensitive area. There you go, I've answered your question maybe you will do me the same courtesy.
By the way, your 60kts thing is only relevant for a low vis landing, not take off. There, I've answered one for you, the rest should be easy.
8, ok you've got your 90m however, you still need 15m spaced centerline lights as a requirement for a LVTO, additionally, plus, as well as etc. that is why it is stated in EUOPS as a requirement. Just because you have one DOES NOT mean you don't need the other, to assume so is the ridiculous thing! As was quoted in another post you must meet ALL of the requirements. Not just the ones you fancy meeting.
As far as performance goes I'm sure even the likes of you can work that one out.
Why does EUOPS state a requirement for 15m spacing HI centerline lights if the "touch down" lights are adequate?
The logic of using certain holding points in LVPs is to protect the ILS sensitive area. There you go, I've answered your question maybe you will do me the same courtesy.
By the way, your 60kts thing is only relevant for a low vis landing, not take off. There, I've answered one for you, the rest should be easy.
8, ok you've got your 90m however, you still need 15m spaced centerline lights as a requirement for a LVTO, additionally, plus, as well as etc. that is why it is stated in EUOPS as a requirement. Just because you have one DOES NOT mean you don't need the other, to assume so is the ridiculous thing! As was quoted in another post you must meet ALL of the requirements. Not just the ones you fancy meeting.
As far as performance goes I'm sure even the likes of you can work that one out.
Why does EUOPS state a requirement for 15m spacing HI centerline lights if the "touch down" lights are adequate?
Last edited by Lord Spandex Masher; 2nd Nov 2013 at 00:33.
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Spandex your not getting it !
Yes you have to have 15m centre line lighting to perform the takeoff we are in total agreement over that. What you don't do is taxi down the runway to get to them if you already see at least 3 sets of very large touchdown lights in front of you ! The reason you need to have the centre line lighting is because that's a legal MINIMUM. You are not going to have the far larger touchdown lights all the way down the runway are you. So at some point on the takeoff you sure will need those minimum 15m centre lights. The lighting system all joins to together if you look at it.
and as far as performance goes well no we wouldn't be able to work it out would we if you have taxied past the only point it was based on.
Yes you have to have 15m centre line lighting to perform the takeoff we are in total agreement over that. What you don't do is taxi down the runway to get to them if you already see at least 3 sets of very large touchdown lights in front of you ! The reason you need to have the centre line lighting is because that's a legal MINIMUM. You are not going to have the far larger touchdown lights all the way down the runway are you. So at some point on the takeoff you sure will need those minimum 15m centre lights. The lighting system all joins to together if you look at it.
and as far as performance goes well no we wouldn't be able to work it out would we if you have taxied past the only point it was based on.
Last edited by 8che; 2nd Nov 2013 at 01:02.
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Originally Posted by 8che
Yes you have to have 15m centre line lighting to perform the takeoff we are in total agreement over that.
It's a legal requirement to have 15m centerline lights. Although you've agreed you legally need 15m lights to perform a LVTO you're adamant that you're not going to use them initially?
You are, surely, pulling my leg now. You base your performance on the length of runway available from the correct point. Simple, even for you.
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How is that relevant to being able to see the 15m centerline lights before accelerating past 60kts? Which is what Rudderthing was using to justify not needing to meet the legal lighting requirements for a LVTO.
Once you've rejected a take off you're not taking off anymore, are you?!
Once you've rejected a take off you're not taking off anymore, are you?!