Intersection takeoff in LVO
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You can't use pilot assessment if RVRs are below 150m. Minimum reported RVRs of 125m are required for the ENTIRE take off run which you won't have on a displaced threshold.
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Ok, so the 15 m CL thing has been done to death now. I see both sides, Spandex vs. The Others. Depends on 1) How you interpret the rules and 2) How strictly you apply the rules, as someone said their is a blazing set of CAT3 lights for orientation even if you technically don't have 15 m spaced CL lights.
So next question. Can RVR readings be substituted by pilot assesment for 125 m LVTO? I am not talking about the 90 m visual segment, but the actual RVR measureing.
So next question. Can RVR readings be substituted by pilot assesment for 125 m LVTO? I am not talking about the 90 m visual segment, but the actual RVR measureing.
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172, no you can't. You need reported RVRs for the entire take off run if the RVRs are below 150m. Ergo, you must start your take off at a position which has a reported RVR.
Thus the implication is that you can't start your take off at the beginning of the runway if there is a displaced threshold because you're not meeting ALL of the requirements for a take off below 150m RVR. Furthermore, you still need the 90m visual segment which equates to 6 lights if you're starting at the correct point.
Thus the implication is that you can't start your take off at the beginning of the runway if there is a displaced threshold because you're not meeting ALL of the requirements for a take off below 150m RVR. Furthermore, you still need the 90m visual segment which equates to 6 lights if you're starting at the correct point.
You can't use pilot assessment if RVRs are below 150m. Minimum reported RVRs of 125m are required for the ENTIRE take off run which you won't have on a displaced threshold.
"Pilot assessment of TDZ RVR when practical always overrides the reported TDZ RVR or Met Visibility."
Hmmm. So it seems to be operator specific, as all these Part A references being quoted are approved by the regulator...
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FW, but you can't replace reported RVR with pilot assessment if any of the RVRs are below take off minima.
For example, if you are given an RVR of 120m everything else is irrelevant. Even if you have a 90m visual segment you can't take off.
If you are given a TDZ RVR of 140, ie less than 150m, you can't start the take off run on a displaced threshold because that RVR isn't relevant to that part of the runway. You need to start the take off run at the relevant point, TDZ, which happens to mean that you'll see 15m centerline lights.
For example, if you are given an RVR of 120m everything else is irrelevant. Even if you have a 90m visual segment you can't take off.
If you are given a TDZ RVR of 140, ie less than 150m, you can't start the take off run on a displaced threshold because that RVR isn't relevant to that part of the runway. You need to start the take off run at the relevant point, TDZ, which happens to mean that you'll see 15m centerline lights.
FW, but you can't replace reported RVR with pilot assessment if any of the RVRs are below take off minima.
If I was given RVRs of 50/75/50 at LGW, from A/A3 (the 15m spacing is a separate discussion) and I assessed the TDZ visibility as 75m or more, I could take off, according to our manual. What other operators do, I don't know but I've done this with the CAA in the back with no complaint...
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If it's any use to know the required runway centreline lights intensity is 5,000 candela whereas approach lighting is 20,000, so with 30m spaced approach lights pre-landing threshold without the runway centreline lights there's maybe just as much chance of having the required visual reference for take-off with the higher intensity approach lights.
Gatwick 26L has a starter extension between Mike and Alpha so no runway centreline lights in this portion required (not sure why), also not sure at 08R end if Juliet to runway landing threshold has runway centreline lights, but if not maybe there should be as it's a full width runway between these two points.
Manchester's runway 05L/23R is about to have 15m spaced centreline lights (for take-off) installed pre-landing threshold at either end. This is in addition to the 30m spaced approach lights already there.
Gatwick 26L has a starter extension between Mike and Alpha so no runway centreline lights in this portion required (not sure why), also not sure at 08R end if Juliet to runway landing threshold has runway centreline lights, but if not maybe there should be as it's a full width runway between these two points.
Manchester's runway 05L/23R is about to have 15m spaced centreline lights (for take-off) installed pre-landing threshold at either end. This is in addition to the 30m spaced approach lights already there.
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The only Three RVR's ever reported are TDZ MID and RO
In any case the TDZ rvr becomes ir-relevent as soon as you choose to do and intersection departure.I have so far not come acrross any field where the LVP published gives line up at a point for which RVR is not available .So in any case be it VIDP or any place the line up (Now I THink so) will always happen at a position near the TDZ, as per published LVP procedure.
It certainly gets me to another Question - Are all taxi tracks and routes available during LVP.
In any case the TDZ rvr becomes ir-relevent as soon as you choose to do and intersection departure.I have so far not come acrross any field where the LVP published gives line up at a point for which RVR is not available .So in any case be it VIDP or any place the line up (Now I THink so) will always happen at a position near the TDZ, as per published LVP procedure.
It certainly gets me to another Question - Are all taxi tracks and routes available during LVP.
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As we lose count of the number of lights various we may or may not see at 60kts or otherwise, I recall in a UK company with a UK TRE operating UK CAA approved procedures, we were told that a rated thrust takeoff may be considered better in LVPs as you would have more distance to stop in crap vis and the V1 would be lower.
It also provided greater swing tendency in the event of the inevitable RTO or EFATO, so testing our ability to stay on the runway or get airborne safely with this extra handling difficulty.
Has this advice been blown out of UK tests and would the lights counters like to ponder the wisdom or otherwise of such training?
Just a thought to sway the topic away from your OM versus my OM!!
P S. Obviously the wise pilot wants as much runway in front of them in conditions such as these.........................................
It also provided greater swing tendency in the event of the inevitable RTO or EFATO, so testing our ability to stay on the runway or get airborne safely with this extra handling difficulty.
Has this advice been blown out of UK tests and would the lights counters like to ponder the wisdom or otherwise of such training?
Just a thought to sway the topic away from your OM versus my OM!!
P S. Obviously the wise pilot wants as much runway in front of them in conditions such as these.........................................
Last edited by BARKINGMAD; 4th Nov 2013 at 22:34. Reason: Additional info.
