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SRS mode during windshear - A320

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SRS mode during windshear - A320

Old 26th Feb 2013, 19:21
  #41 (permalink)  
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Do you level off at 1500' only as long as the engine is secure of regardless?
I knew that question was coming, because I have asked that same question many times to line captains and instructors, getting two very different answers. This is a little bit off from the original post's subject, but what the hell.

My airline procedures don't mention anything about when to level off, so I have to rely only in FCOM and FCTM guidance, and the FCTM states that (Normal Operations, Pre Start, Takeoff Briefing)

"In case of failure after V1:

Continue TO, no actions before 400' AGL except gear up
Reaching 400' AGL, ECAM Actions
Reaching EO ACC altitude

- If the engine is secured, level off, accelerate and clean up
- Otherwise continue climbing until the engine is secured (but not above EO maximum acceleration altitude)"

Then, it says (Abnormal Operations, Operating Techniques, Engine Failure After V1):

"The engine out maximum acceleration altitude corresponds to the maximum altitude that can be achieved with one engine out and the other engine(s) operating at takeoff thrust for a maximum of 10 minutes)"

So, given those two pieces of text, what I think everyone should do is secure the engine first, and then proceed to level off, only if above the EO AA, that for my airline is 1500' AFE, making sure you don't exceed 10 min with TOGA Thrust (that's why you start the chrono at the beginning of every takeoff roll).

Last edited by AlphaFloor27; 26th Feb 2013 at 19:23.
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 20:59
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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start the chrono at the beginning of every takeoff roll

Technically if you're using FLEX T/O you don't have to start the chrono, you're not using TOGA thrust.
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 21:08
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, but the reason I was given to use the chrono on TO roll is that if you have to use TOGA, chances are you'll have too much in your hands to remember pressing it by that time!
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 21:26
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for clarifying I've also wondered about that. I've had sim sessions with both procedures (leveling off before engine secure and continuing climb if engine is not secure) and find that continuing the climb if the engine isn't secure is better. There is less workload with this procedure. Stopping the climb at EO ACCEL ALT is in my opinion pointless, what have you gained, a clean aircraft and a higher speed, but at the expense of interrupting ECAM actions in order to get the PNF help you clean up and adding more workload overall on the crew? If anyone knows the wisdom behind leveling off at EO ACCEL ALT even when the engine is not secure can you please provide us with an explanation.
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 21:27
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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You're probably right
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 23:38
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Back to the Windshear scenario.


I think we are all forgetting that windshear in usually momentary over a very finite vertical space.

If the FACs have given a Windshear warning, the aircraft should remain in SRS once TOGA is selected. HOWEVER, there is a good chance once the maneuver has commenced and you have recovered you will still probably be below your ACC ALT, in this case 400'. In a severe case, you will have had an AP disconnect and be in A/FLOOR.

If you are above 400', having selected TOGA and reengaging SRS, you will need to engage another mode or wait until ALT* to revert from SRS.

RECOVER SMOOTHLY TO NORMAL CLIMB OUT OF THE SHEAR

That's the end of the procedure, from there it's up too you.

I dare say there will be a little of the following going on:

1. Where are we?
2. Are we safe?
3. Was it violent, do we have any cabin requirements?
4. Has my FO caught up yet? Are they onboard?

Etc etc etc

Given all that you may not want to accelerate to give some breathing space so selecting speed would be quite reasonable if the aircraft is no longer in SRS.

OEB 154 is a great example where SRS may not be the be all and end all.

Last edited by Bula; 26th Feb 2013 at 23:40.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 03:00
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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My company does it differently, level off at EO AA regardless if engine is secure or not. That's why I asked.

Last edited by Airmann; 27th Feb 2013 at 03:08.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 03:11
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Airmann, there are a few airlines that do it the same as you... Personally I prefer our way! But horses for courses
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 03:56
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Airlines do change procedures here and there. But Airbus recommends on ensuring engine is secured first unless you are reaching Max EO Acc altitude. Also Airbus takes Flex also as limit power and applies time limitation like TOGA.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 05:32
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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PT6A: I agree with you, I don't like leveling off if the engine is not secured, like I said, it doesn't make any sense and is more counterproductive, increases pilot workload with little to no gain (at least I can't see the gain, that's why I asked if anyone could).

villas: Where is the reference for FLEX limitation?
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 05:41
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Airbus TRTOs conduct standardisation meetings. This was mentioned in Toulouse Dec 2008. Unforunately I cannot access it.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 07:12
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John,

The largest Airbus operator in the world stops ECAM and accelerates..... I found it very strange when I was informed of that also!
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 07:25
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PT6.... who is the largest operator in the world?

Air France .... or Air Asia ......


either way I'm not too concerned. Most obstacles are close enough to the airport that if you are worried about OEI climb gradients, the OEI ACC ALT is usually sufficiently raised high enough for obstacle clearance that there isn't a Max EO ACC ALT limit.

Securing the engine prior to levelling sounds reasonable. For those who do otherwise I ask why?

Last edited by Bula; 27th Feb 2013 at 20:28.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 07:43
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The problem with engine fire case is both engines are running so the rate of climb is high and you reach EO ACC quickly. If you level off without securing the engine then you have to continue the ECAM to secure the engine in level flight as putting out fire has top priority, the VFE can be reached and you will have to quickly retract flaps and get back to attend to fire. It can be done, but on your off day you may damage flaps. Even if you did not you gain nothing by doing this jugglary. So take your pick.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 08:40
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a pilot- defence

Brilliant advocacy mate!

So much immaturity and showing off without the seasoning to show it from some of our am sure inexperienced members. Its what you get sometimes when jumping straight onto. Push button jets without proper flying in the piston and turborop league...too much
know...and verbal diarhoea and no sensibility and respect for people merely enquiring to learn or making a contribution out of earnest desire to help or stimulate more ideas on the subject matter.

PPRuNe needs more skyknights like you on the forum chum!
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 09:03
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Capt Villas repy to WhyByFlier

...in a word..kudos! I admire your humility and diplomacy Sir.Such is the language old school aviators were dressed with...and should continue to uphold in the interest of giving
our profesion the name it deserves. Why don't airlines test for maturity too in their psychometric test battery?
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 09:10
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Above 400ft aal: READ ECAM; confirm failure; my radios ECAM actions

Confirm Engine secured and above acc alt whichever is later.
Stop ECAM; push V/S level off accelerate retract on schedule; green dot; open climb; MCT; Continue ECAM
Somewhere in between usually while accelerating inform ATC.

Thats how we do it.

I wonder who is the biggest Airbus operator.

Cheers
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 09:19
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Largest Airbus operator is US Airways... They don't use any Airbus supplied documentation on-board their aircraft and indeed have many airline produced procedures.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 09:46
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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I like I said before, I'm not a big fan of the push-to-level-off before engine is secure, you add unnecessary workload onto both pilots and for no good reason. My company does it but I don't agree with it, I would simply like someone to explain what the benefits are because I see none.

Regarding US Airways, yes they have many of their own procedures some of which you can find online. Airbusdriver.net Gives you an insight into their ideas of how the A320 should be flown.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 09:51
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Engine secure

i was told this was Generally defined as when " ENG XX SHUTdown" ...Like before you start APU s, fiddle with TCAS etc, Relight consider erc...
Then alt hold / vs speed zero ( 330/320) and clean up... Once engine out turn is complete also normally for most operators...

Also, chrono is irrelevant for TOGA thrust I think.. Just gives pilot something to do on takeoff.... FADEC monitors it and produces an ecam..."TAke off thrust limit exceeded" or similar....?

Well. On R/R anyway...?

And most FMS have a default altitude of 1500 in them from factories.Northrop/ grumman or honeywell..... So any less is company requested mod...

Boeing generally recommend not below 800 feet...( yes I knowmwe discussing AB) This was partly due to accel segments on SIDs..Being 800' ...now removed mostly I think...

And the fact that if you clean up on one engine below 800'feet you get annoyed by the " dont think dont think (sink) GPWS warning due to low rate of climb ...
Any other opinions or corrections to what I have printed , happy to stand corrected...
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