Go-Around at higher than minimums

[Don Gato]

We practice lots of V1 cuts and go-arounds at minimums, but many times we need to go around at 1500 ft AGL, and it may happen that an engine fails other than at V1. Ragarding go-arounds I have seen diferent things when performed other than at minimums. Some of them tidier than others. What sequence (in terms of pitch, thrust, roll, config, MCP) would you follow say when going around at 1000 ft AGL climbing to pattern altitude or missed approach altitude? I am thinking of the NG. Would you use TOGA? It is interesting to me how we seem to lack procedures for things happening at times diferent from those we practice in the sim. Thanks for your thoughts and happy 2013!

[zerozero]

I don't fly the NG, but in general it's always good to stick to SOPs as much as possible.

In other words, if you must go missed at 1500', then yes, select TOGA and fly the machine the way it was designed to be flown.

I once watched a missed go a little wacky after LOC/GS capture and the airport changed the landing runway. The pilot was reluctant to select TOGA as he was instructed to maintain an altitude just 500' above.

Basically every situation is different and that's where experience, good judgement and systems knowledge really pay off.

Happy New Year.

[cosmo kramer]

What's the problem with TOGA if going around at 1000'? Most of the time the missed approach altitude is several thousand feet above. One click on TOGA and you will have minutes until reaching that altitude.

If going around at say 3000 feet (for whatever reason, e.g. ATC required):
Click, click. Click, click. Add thust to climb as instructed/missed approach altitude and clean up.

If auto flight is desirable or the above option sounds too stressful:
Disconnect everything and stabilize level flight (should be possible for almost everybody). Let the PM recycle FD, confirm missed approach altitude is set, select appropriate modes like LNAV and V/S +1000'. Re-engage auto pilot and auto throttle, then start clean up.

[waterbottle]

This is something that often isn't given much thought.

Have a think about examples such as KLAX, where a miss prior to DA will often require you to DESCEND. Due to airspace aircraft cant be higher than 2000'. When all we practice involves hitting TOGA, this can make you stop and think a bit!

[bubbers44]

Most pilots in my generation would not consider this a problem. Why is it a problem now because of automation?

You have a missed approach procedure if IFR and if VFR fly ATC instructions. Why push the toga button if you have to climb 500 ft? It will scare the hell out of all of your passengers.

[sevenstrokeroll]

it is amazing how much ''automation'' has affected flying.

after I had flown the DC9 for 11 years, I transferred to the 737 (POS). It had autothrottles...what a freaking waste!

so, turning final runway 31 at KLGA off the LIE visual apch, at 300 feet tower says go around, maintain 2,500 feet..WILCO, off we go with the autothrottles. TOWER THEN STARTS YELLING...SEAPLANE AT 1500 feet, maintain 1000' !!!!

I turned everything off and leveled off at 1000'.

TURN OFF THE FREAKING AUTOMATION. to go up, add power and pull nose up, to go down, reduce power and point nose down.

A go around at 1500' agl is not quite as critical as one at DH/DA...but you do have to think...where am I, what do I want to accomplish? What is the safest way to achieve this?

climbing 400'? Gentle...

CLIMBING away from danger, MAX EFFORT FULL POWER GET THE THING GOING.

And if you have to ask at PPRUNE...you better do some serious thinking for yourself about all sorts of things.

And for one of those light piston twins...think about what you will do if you lose an engine in the descent...you might not even know you lost one till you try to level off in the pattern!

Good luck...think...really, THINK@!!!!!!!

[bubbers44]

I had a check airman out of LAX so screwed up he was over 300knots at 2300 ft with a 2000 ft level off using automation on take off. I told him to go to idle power and descend and he was checking me out as a new FO on a 767. I was a 737 captain for years but we got bought by a major airline. Sometimes the major airlines don't have the best pilots.

[bubbers44]

My next check airman took my checkout leg to Dulles and was high and coupled the approach above glide slope in altitude hold and I said it won,t capture. When he saw the glide slope at the bottom he finally agreed with me when I said idle power, gear down, autothrottle and autopilot off and flaps on schedule. we landed because I just wanted a beer and didn't want to go around. My little Ca airline pilots knew how to fly, automation made these check airmen programmers. So sad.

[sevenstrokeroll]

great stories bubbers...

I am sure we would be better off with less electronics and more thinking and flying by real pilots.

there are those who say that we are safer with the ''computerized planes''...but think of A F 447...yikes.
today, newyears day, there was a twilight zone marathon...the one where the 707 went back in time was on...those pilots, circa 1960, were my kind of guys. navigator, flight engineer, radio operator, copilot and captain. Global 33 calling Idlewild.

[aterpster]

Waterbottle:

Have a think about examples such as KLAX, where a miss prior to DA will often require you to DESCEND. Due to airspace aircraft cant be higher than 2000'. When all we practice involves hitting TOGA, this can make you stop and think a bit!

Well, yes, but well prior to DA. More like at, or prior to the FAF, where it should be a "go-around" with plenty of time to work it out with ATC.

Because of all the things that go wrong at LAX as many well-above DA go-arounds are ATC initiated as they are flight crew initiated.

[aterpster]

sevenstrokeroll:

it is amazing how much ''automation'' has affected flying.

after I had flown the DC9 for 11 years, I transferred to the 737 (POS). It had autothrottles...what a freaking waste!

so, turning final runway 31 at KLGA off the LIE visual apch, at 300 feet tower says go around, maintain 2,500 feet..WILCO, off we go with the autothrottles. TOWER THEN STARTS YELLING...SEAPLANE AT 1500 feet, maintain 1000' !!!!

I turned everything off and leveled off at 1000'.

TURN OFF THE FREAKING AUTOMATION. to go up, add power and pull nose up, to go down, reduce power and point nose down.

A go around at 1500' agl is not quite as critical as one at DH/DA...but you do have to think...where am I, what do I want to accomplish? What is the safest way to achieve this?

climbing 400'? Gentle...

CLIMBING away from danger, MAX EFFORT FULL POWER GET THE THING GOING.

And if you have to ask at PPRuNe...you better do some serious thinking for yourself about all sorts of things.

And for one of those light piston twins...think about what you will do if you lose an engine in the descent...you might not even know you lost one till you try to level off in the pattern!

Good luck...think...really, THINK@!!!!!!!

Great post!!

[DBate]

I have to agree with the opinion of several posters above; were is the problem in flying a missed approach from a higher altitude than minimums? Just fly the airplane and if the automatics are not appropriate in the given situation or do not perform as desired just fly the maneuver manually.

The one reason I can think of to always set TOGA power or press the G/A button (or whatever it is called in the aircraft type you fly) would be, that on many types it triggers the correct FMA modes and sequences the flightplan. On some types below certain altitudes (MD11 e.g.) you would not be able to leave the approach mode without pushing the G/A button. So pressing the G/A button would give you FD indications for the missed approach and both vertical and lateral guidance. However if you are going around from an altitude close to the missed approach altitude the pitch bar of the FD will of course (initially) command a pitch leading to a very high V/S, which is not desirable in such a situation.

In such a case I'd just push the button and if the G/A altitude is close just take over manually and fly the missed approach (or at least the initial part) by hand. At least the roll bar of the FD would be helpful then.

No brainer me thinks .

Happy new year everyone,
DBate

[FlyingStone]

I don't know about the NG, but on classic I'd still go for TOGA below 2000ft RA (since it's inhibited above this height) just to go out of the approach mode, because it's the most simple way to do it. A/T would then command thrust for rate of climb between 1000ft and 2000 ft/min and if you're close to MCP altitude it would go into ALT ACQ very soon, so no particular discomfort for passengers. But I agree - pressing TOGA twice and following FD pointing into stratosphere to climb for 500ft until missed approach altitude is not the way to do it.

[Don Gato]

Many thanks for the valuable replies. Probably I was not clear enough. I did not say nor implied that there is a "problem" in performing a go-around higher than minimums. However, there are diferent ways of doing it, and it clearly shows given the answers above. I have seen it done in diferent manners and was just hoping to share ideas of technical content. I agree that automation can affect your flying if you never practice some hand flying. Properly used, though, it is a great thing. Including autothrottles, fms, etc. The same goes for CRM, SOPs,

[de facto]

On the NG,you have 3 ways to exit the Loc/gp .
Press Toga or deselect frequencies or A/P and FDs OFF then ON.

TOGA will give you guidance for 15 degr nose up,if you are close to your GA altitude,it is obviously not the mode to use.(some have suggested to press toga and then straight after disconect the AT..not my favourite..).

Deselecting frequencies allows you to use a more apropriate pitch mode especially for a descending missed approach.

A/P OFF and AT OFF when time or knowledge or position awareness are not sufficient to mess about with the automatics.

[bubbers44]

Pilots should be pilots. Don't let automation make you a stupid robot. It is that simple. Pushing buttons is fine if they work but if they don't work be a pilot. It isn't that hard. You should be ashamed if the only way you could do a missed approach is with the TOGA button.

[bubbers44]

I have done many missed approaches because of no ground reference and have never used TOGA because of passenger concern. ATC go arounds because of aircraft not clearing the runway have been very carefully done manualy to not alarm passengers. That is how a professional pilot handles his airplane. It isn't hard to do a go around without scaring the crap out of everybody.

[de facto]

Bubbers,
True but pilots should also know their automatics as its use under some circumstances maye reduce the workload when the crew need it the most.(bad weather,low vis,busy environment)..
Disconnecting all,all the time for little reason is all good and dandi but is not always the best way out.

Ps :no idea how to spell 'dandi'

bubbers44

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 1,645
I have done many missed approaches because of no ground reference and have never used TOGA because of passenger concern.That is how a professional pilot handles his airplane. It isn't hard to do a go around without scaring the crap out of everybody.

So when you perform your soft go around not to worry those pax of yours,what thrust do you use to retract those flaps?
Flying in a different manner that the manufacturer recommends all the time for some dodgy reason not to scare your pax,and you call that a reason of professionalism?get out of here.

[Dan Winterland]

On FBW Airbus types, moving the TLs to TOGA is the way you activate the Go Around mode. If you don't want TOGA thrust, then you move the TLs back to the Climb detent after a momentary TOGA selection before the engines had have a chance to power up.

[captjns]

Automation for G/A?!? We don't need no stinker automation! Did you have automation when you all got your single or multi IFR tickets? How did you survive?! Even during single pilot operations at night with crappy conditions?

What happened to following the MAP on the chart, or ATC instructions? As a side bar, when conducting Sim training in the NG, many missed approaches are done without LNAV or VNAV for the development of better situational awareness. How would you fly the MAP with loss of RNP/ANP? Beware flight control computers are subject to loss of situational awareness as the bodies in the cockpit. Without TAWS, the FCC will gladly command the AP to fly your jet into a mountain during a path descent on an off route heading.

My opinion is that those straight out of the puppy mills right into magenta or green lined jets need to get away from the automation, and continue to build their flying experience, because perish the thought of no automation!