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Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

23rd Dec 2012, 01:10

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: 39.000 ft above the Earth
Posts: 12
Inside view

If you want you can see an approach flown all manual here,

Airbus 320 AP/FD/A-THR OFF Approach - YouTube!

Around 3:40 is the A/C at 500 feet.. Runway somewhat rural though...
23rd Dec 2012, 20:10

Join Date: May 2000
Location: Glorious West Sussex
Age: 72
Posts: 1,012

With regard to the two degrees in eight seconds...
I suggest that this be read again, for clarification.
Here is the bit from FCOM DSC 27-20-10 Normal Law - Pitch Control - Flare Mode.

"The system memorizes the attitude at 50 ft, and that attitude becomes the initial reference for pitch attitude control. As the aircraft descends through 30ft, the system begins to reduce the pitch attitude, reducing it to 2deg nose down over a period of 8 s."

If it was "by" 2deg over 8 seconds, why would the system bother to memorize the pitch attitude at 50'?
TP

Last edited by TyroPicard; 23rd Dec 2012 at 20:14.
23rd Dec 2012, 20:31

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: ...
Posts: 3,789
It's really important to learn where the runway/aiming point should be in your window. So when it's nice weather look predominantly OUTSIDE and quickly scan inside. Initially let the autopilot do the work but looking outside during the approach will eventually give you a feel to what it should look like.
Once you have this picture you can correct deviations faster than the flightdirector can tell you and you actually follow that instruction.

During approach (fully configured and on speed) the aiming point will not move in the window until the flare, offcourse the runway dimension changes but the aiming point stays in the same position.
So when you disconnect the AP, keep the aiming point in the same position in the window. This should ensure your flightpath is stable and help you cope with turbulence and other nasty destabilizing effects mother nature throws at us.

Coming through 200ft you start to scan between horizon, aiming point (both outside) and offcourse inside your instruments. As you descend your scan shifts from predominantly aiming point to predominantly the horizon (end of runway). This helps to judge your sinkrate.

Again you should always do this, autoland, pilot monitoring, pilot flying. This will again build your picture of what your sinkrate should look like.

Then follow the rest of the advice. When I make a banger I can usually trace it back to focussing too much on the aiming point in the later stages.
24th Dec 2012, 15:30

Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Sunrise Senior Living
Posts: 1,301
Just read the manuals. The FCOM excerpt quoted by TP above has recently been amended to better accord with the FCTM entry NO 170 LANDING - FLARE. Read that and don't listen to "this works for me..." advice.
mcdhu
25th Dec 2012, 00:47

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: France
Age: 42
Posts: 147
Close your eyes, when the guy next to you starts screaming ,Flare
26th Dec 2012, 10:46

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Iriomote
Posts: 182
C2 had the next guy do exactly that on my line check!

About chasing FD's. If you get the chance in either sim or during line flight. Try an approach with AP, FD off and just the bird and use the Papi. I found visual approaches to serve for a much more stable approach during my line training. Always found with FD's on, I was chasing them to no end and de stabilising myself.

As advice give here, at 30' I do a small check and start bringing power back. At 20' I commence the flare which is in a sense, holding the attitude. If you flare high then release some pressure on the stick.

On the 321, I add 5' to the flare.

Last edited by TwoTone-7; 26th Dec 2012 at 10:46.
26th Dec 2012, 16:05

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 447
Oops, TyroPicard, you're absolutely right!!!

Oops, you're absolutely right! My mistake.

The FCTM words it differently.....

My mistake, Sorry.

Fly safe,

26th Dec 2012, 19:10

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: EVERYWHERE
Posts: 55
Just a quick update on what technique yesterday's captain suggested and insisted I use.
Seems like every cpt wants his own thing.

So he suggested I memorize the numbers rather than flying fully by the seat of the pants initially.
Basically to cut power at 30, start to hold you attitude to break the ROD, and finally flare at 20.
Worked well on the first leg, on my second leg I ended up floating a bit, but touched down nicely soon as I let go a bit.

He said it works like a charm all the time, and keeps you on the safe side...
26th Dec 2012, 19:35

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Norwich
Age: 42
Posts: 2
30' pause..chop...flare

Worked out 98.5% of the time for me when I used to fly the little beauty
27th Dec 2012, 15:42

Join Date: May 2000
Location: Glorious West Sussex
Age: 72
Posts: 1,012
Don't think it actually makes much difference... I guess the fact that the a/c tries to pitch down is all you need to know. I'm just a bit a*al about technical precision!
The only time it makes a difference is if the pitch attitude is a long way from normal passing 50', which would alter the pitch rate below 30'. Probably explains some of my landings....

TP
31st Dec 2012, 08:52

Join Date: May 2012
Location: earth
Posts: 62
I would like to thank all the captain's who have shared their views.. It was a good learning experience.
26th Jan 2013, 09:34

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Not far from the edge of the Milky Way Galaxy in the Orion Arm.
Posts: 510
Flare

Tis sad. Lest your TRI be too scared could you not go into the sim?

Talk with the nervous little bugger, over a coffee and ask him, if he would accept holding the ATT until 30, then at , 20` pitch up about 2.5 degrees, or 2 degrees - judged visually, the he won`t freak at 50 feet when you don`t make any `flaring inputs.

Land better in that att - rather than float down runway with ever increasing pitch or concentrating on trying to get a fantastic "flare" - RETARD when the little man in the computer says ¬RETARD¬ .

Airbus 320 prefers to land firmly, than most and is as nearest to "flown on" than most.

As you are where you are at. Try youtube - look for a video by . . called . . .ANA 3/3 A320 here in this vid, you can see an A320 from the back end from a ground camera, you can click on the space bar thing and re-play the flare to touchdown bit (about 4 seconds) again and again and again . . . . note the straightening of the nose too, note also when the REV come out.

Remember - you are NOT trying to "flare" You are trying to land the aircraft.

The "flare" is simply a result of your efforts at trying to land it. see whadda mean?

Practice makes perfect = let nervy know that you are awake as he has not got the time or the money to "chance it" if you f--- up at 20 feet and yet some chick Captain in India or Pakistan DID have a short career of landing the 320 on the nosewheel, not to be recommended!

So just tell Capt TRI to hold tight until 20 feet and he might, might just trust you.

It would have been much better if he could have taught you or got you to learn, properly in the first place, like they should have done on the type rating course (can`t get the staff nowadays!!)

One company tried this on PPL students - yup, they flew them round the circuit trying to get them to land without having previously taught them how to land. It meant mega money into the tills at this compnay and poor frustrated students not knowing where they went wrong - Answer, wrong school. Its now gone out of business, thank God.

You DO need balls, or in the case of a lady, loads of estrogene to dare to land the thing but, but, you must be taught properly in the first place, to know what "good" is, and then, in the fullness of time the wings will grow from your shoulders.

Don`t forget, the TRI - if the aircraft gets broken while he is tightly sitting next to you, then it comes out of his wages, which is why the Captain always goes down with the ship.

Last edited by Natstrackalpha; 26th Jan 2013 at 10:05.
26th Jan 2013, 11:38

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Lat..x Long..y
Posts: 211
Excuses ...oh excuses

The cabin crew are making a bet on the landing.

The fleet chief/inspector is breathing down my neck on the jump seat.

Some nervous passengers added some thrust on their seat and destabilized my flare!

And once you grease it on on the mains...remembernot to wreck the nose gear..there is a pronounced down force with spoiler extension to act as a reminder of flaring.Do bring her down gently or it might spoil the spoils of a smoothie touch down...meanwhile..check those touch down zone markers ...you don't want to leave them too far behind your tail!

Last edited by Vc10Tail; 26th Jan 2013 at 11:44. Reason: no title
26th Jan 2013, 11:53
Robert G Mugabe
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Ignore the cabin crew.

Retard thrust levers before you check the ROD. Less chance of floating long.

Then look at the far end of the runway and let aircraft fly itself onto runway.

Dont think about it to much.

Forget the firm ones immediately.
30th Jan 2013, 18:43

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Lat..x Long..y
Posts: 211
Retard befire checking the ROD

Yeah...and give em a proper dictatorial bang on their rear ends!

Surely you enjoy terrorizing your passengers Dis-Honourable Mugabe?

I find that technique works on a light prop twin seater...not an 80 tonne metal junk...even if Fly by wire..below 50 ft "Ground Law" applies...meaning pilot is the driver.

Last edited by Vc10Tail; 30th Jan 2013 at 18:43.
31st Jan 2013, 00:36

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,561
Making firm landings and forgetting them means you will always be a lousy pilot. Why not take a little pride in your profession and learn how to land like a real pilot? That is by feel and last minute wind change corrections. Us old guys could do it, why not you?
31st Jan 2013, 01:15

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 2
Bubbers44, would it not be easier if we just take it for granted that the you and all the "old guys" could land every airplane ever made (bar airbus, cos they're for girls), with no AP, ATHR, FD, FMC, upside down,on one engine, in a thunderstorm, on fire.... and then taxi in and shut down, nonchalantly quipping " That's how it's done kid", to the hapless awestruck F/O beside you.

You could cut your post count in four!

This macho rubbish is all great, but the reality is that every really competent operator I learned from over the years didn't spend all day waffling about how fantastic an operator they were, and could impart knowledge with being so condescending. The guys above are giving great gen to someone who is learning. The old "natural born pilot" routine helps no one, and it's on every thread!
31st Jan 2013, 02:02

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,561
Even though it is your first post, I respect your opinion. Some day you will realize that it takes experience to properly fly an airplane. It did for me and all of my flying friends. We don't think we are any better than the new guys with low experience as we had but we went through the whole learning experience and now know a lot more than we did back then. We went from Aeronca Champs and J3 Cubs to Boeing 757 and 767's. Most of us are now retired but had a very wonderful flying career. Hope you do too.
31st Jan 2013, 03:11

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 2
It's my first post on PPRuNe, not my first day flying! Iv been flying for many years in both OLP and training capacities. And I think that the standard of guys I've trained in recent years is very high, all extremely motivated, and conscientious, due in no small part to the amount of money it takes to train oneself nowadays! Telling guys that they should feel how to land " in the seat of their pants", is not helpful, and serves only to bewilder a trainee, and massage the trainers ego. Students need a datum of a decent landing to develop feel, and I think the advice given above is excellent.

As an aside, having flown on different fleets with various companies, I've found that there is a huge exaggeration on how much pilot skills have been eroded. When OFTM was initially introduced for one company I worked for, there was a huge increase in reported incidents. I find it hard to believe that we all started flying the aircraft more erratically overnight, rather that guys were pushed into reporting cockups that would have been previously"overlooked"...... So I think it's very easy to reminisce about how fantastic our flying skills were, but I would be mindful of the fact that they were in an era of far less traffic, less atc vigilance, less prescriptive OFTM monitoring, less commercial pressure, and lower fuel bills. It's a brave new world out there!
1st Feb 2013, 03:41

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,561
NB, the problems started when they put 300 hr pilots in the right seat of jet airliners and were told to use the autopilot, don't hand fly. Then they become captains with the same talent in the right seat they had when they started.

Unfortunately now he is in the left seat with almost no hands on experience with the same in the right seat. 30 years ago this wasn't the case. Now it is. That is why we have this problem with automation dependency. We all should be able to easily fly any airplane to Cat 1 minimums with no automation as we did back then.

Most of us back then had thousands of hours single pilot flying twins to Cat 1 minimums with no problem. Now it is a problem. See the problem?