Turbulent Approach Less Flaps
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Spandex, your I am the captain attitude has shown throughout your posts. I always let the FO fly the way he wanted to. I only intervened when it was outside my comfort zone. Why couldn't you. Sometimes you learn from what your FO does differently.
I don't think you learned anything from your FO's, I did by watching. They had a different learning experience and sometimes you can learn from other pilots if you are not obsessed with yourself.
Try it sometime. You might learn something.
I don't think you learned anything from your FO's, I did by watching. They had a different learning experience and sometimes you can learn from other pilots if you are not obsessed with yourself.
Try it sometime. You might learn something.
No doubt another reasonably knowledgeable type that fails to realize what a hazard to aviation his personality is. Extremely poor CRM is a hazard.
How about the rest of of you continue the conversation in a respectable adult manner as an example to him of how he could be.
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Bubbers,
What makes you think I couldn't?
You can tell that from some words on an anonymous forum. Power to you pal!!
Try this - Stop taking yourself and pprune so seriously.
Another statement devoid of intelligence.
Is flap 25 approved for landing on the 757? Yes or no.
Punkalouver, is CRM required for posting on pprune? If you haven't got anything to add to the topic then why are you posting? I'm sure little Bubbers can stick up for himself oh great protector.
Why couldn't you.
I don't think you learned anything from your FO's,
Try it sometime. You might learn something.
Landing flaps on a Boeing 757 is 30 by the way. You don't have your facts right on this so probably don't on your other aircraft either.
Is flap 25 approved for landing on the 757? Yes or no.
Punkalouver, is CRM required for posting on pprune? If you haven't got anything to add to the topic then why are you posting? I'm sure little Bubbers can stick up for himself oh great protector.
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Bubbers,
What makes you think I couldn't?
You can tell that from some words on an anonymous forum. Power to you pal!!
Try this - Stop taking yourself and pprune so seriously.
Another statement devoid of intelligence.
Is flap 25 approved for landing on the 757? Yes or no.
Punkalouver, is CRM required for posting on pprune? If you haven't got anything to add to the topic then why are you posting? I'm sure little Bubbers can stick up for himself oh great protector.
What makes you think I couldn't?
You can tell that from some words on an anonymous forum. Power to you pal!!
Try this - Stop taking yourself and pprune so seriously.
Another statement devoid of intelligence.
Is flap 25 approved for landing on the 757? Yes or no.
Punkalouver, is CRM required for posting on pprune? If you haven't got anything to add to the topic then why are you posting? I'm sure little Bubbers can stick up for himself oh great protector.
Well....I guess I will add that you sure proved me to be 100% correct. O.K. everyone....how do you spell ignore _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Landing flaps for 757 and 767 can be 25 or 30. If you're close to MLW worth giving F25 serious thought (bigger margin to flap exceedance speed). Certainly on smaller unswept ac, but haven't noticed on bigger types, the flaps bring the CoP inboard, thus reducing stability in roll, so having a lower flap setting increases stability - relevant in gusty conditions.
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you are more likely to hit the nosewheel first
you might use more runway than you have available
you might be less spooled up (in a jet) and be less able to correct with power.
you will have less of a chance to see the runway off an ILS
a very odd method to prevent all this catastrophics might be using the correct approach speed for the reduced flap setting i would quess ?
cheers !
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I SHAKE MY HEAD at this thread...BUBBERS ... I KNOW BUBBERS IS A VERY EXPERIENCED AIRLINE PILOT...NO QUESTION ABOUT IT>
Punkalover...you seem to know your stuff and I respect it.
There is a simple way to understand flap useage. OUR forefathers in aviation knew that the higher the landing speed...the more potential for problems ( and no, don't go blaming tailwheels)...THe slower you can safely land the better, and VOILA FLAPS
Bubber's example bout the FO floating away the runway is exactly my point.
Having more flaps makes the engines do more work and VOILA are more able to respond quickly to either windshear or goaround(or even bounced landings...but that is another thread).
MORE flaps means you will stop better, using less wheel brakes, your brakes will stay cooler for the next takeoff if there is a quick turn.
And yes, if your FLIGHT MANUAL says do something...chances are YOU SHOULD DO IT THAT WAY.
sheesh...spandex must be wrapped around this guys brain!
Punkalover...you seem to know your stuff and I respect it.
There is a simple way to understand flap useage. OUR forefathers in aviation knew that the higher the landing speed...the more potential for problems ( and no, don't go blaming tailwheels)...THe slower you can safely land the better, and VOILA FLAPS
Bubber's example bout the FO floating away the runway is exactly my point.
Having more flaps makes the engines do more work and VOILA are more able to respond quickly to either windshear or goaround(or even bounced landings...but that is another thread).
MORE flaps means you will stop better, using less wheel brakes, your brakes will stay cooler for the next takeoff if there is a quick turn.
And yes, if your FLIGHT MANUAL says do something...chances are YOU SHOULD DO IT THAT WAY.
sheesh...spandex must be wrapped around this guys brain!
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Floating down the runway is not an effect of a lower flap setting. I'm sure if you look you'll find examples of floated landings with full flap - I've witnessed a few. Poor technique is what causes a float.
I cant see anything on this thread by Pinkerlover that displays a knowledge of "stuff".
We have brake cooling schedules in our QRH and can adapt accordingly.
So, when I said my FCOM says use flap 30 not 40 in windshear you agree with that? If so why must my brain be wrapped in spandex, unless, of course, yours is too!
P.S. No need to shout chap, we can read just as well without capitals.
I cant see anything on this thread by Pinkerlover that displays a knowledge of "stuff".
We have brake cooling schedules in our QRH and can adapt accordingly.
So, when I said my FCOM says use flap 30 not 40 in windshear you agree with that? If so why must my brain be wrapped in spandex, unless, of course, yours is too!
P.S. No need to shout chap, we can read just as well without capitals.
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Thinking Aloud.
From the dregs of my memory when having brain drained and chip-detection done by CFS aeons ago, the phrase "spanwise distribution of lift" oozed out.
Apparently the more flap, the more the majority of lift moved inboard reducing the effect of the ailerons and adversely affecting roll control per degree of control column/stick deflection.
Whether this still applies to our exotic multiple roll-spoiler shiny craft I am blissfully ignorant, and await educating further.............
Yes, a higher flap setting means higher average thrust and rpm in the event of a sudden need for energy input, though the greater drag of that flap setting must offset that advantage in the event of a go-around, surely the craft will reach the G/A flap setting slightly later, delaying the increase in energy input?
For those on this topic who seem to think there is only ONE land-flap setting, why does Mr Boeing for example have 3 flap settings with 3x VsREF in the FMS for the 73s various? I appreciate the F15 setting is for non-normals, but my last 4 companies permitted either of the other 2 settings, depending on LDA or whether a lower attitude was needed for LVOs visibility over the glareshield.
Finally, old classic 747 drivers may recall Mr Boeing advised using F30 on the Jumbo where possible, later in its life, after large sections of flap assembly were dropping into peoples gardens as a result of fatigue exacerbated by regular use of the maximum setting!
A lie-down in a dark room beckons again, after exercising what's left of my neurons, during the usual winter hibernation of a contract-trash airframe manager.
Apparently the more flap, the more the majority of lift moved inboard reducing the effect of the ailerons and adversely affecting roll control per degree of control column/stick deflection.
Whether this still applies to our exotic multiple roll-spoiler shiny craft I am blissfully ignorant, and await educating further.............
Yes, a higher flap setting means higher average thrust and rpm in the event of a sudden need for energy input, though the greater drag of that flap setting must offset that advantage in the event of a go-around, surely the craft will reach the G/A flap setting slightly later, delaying the increase in energy input?
For those on this topic who seem to think there is only ONE land-flap setting, why does Mr Boeing for example have 3 flap settings with 3x VsREF in the FMS for the 73s various? I appreciate the F15 setting is for non-normals, but my last 4 companies permitted either of the other 2 settings, depending on LDA or whether a lower attitude was needed for LVOs visibility over the glareshield.
Finally, old classic 747 drivers may recall Mr Boeing advised using F30 on the Jumbo where possible, later in its life, after large sections of flap assembly were dropping into peoples gardens as a result of fatigue exacerbated by regular use of the maximum setting!
A lie-down in a dark room beckons again, after exercising what's left of my neurons, during the usual winter hibernation of a contract-trash airframe manager.
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All of us have done thousands of landings and know how to do them successfully every time. Now we have people that think we should have been doing it differently? Why? We did it the way the book said to do it. It worked so well we didn't change anything. What is wrong with that? 40 years of flying with no problems makes me think some of us old guys maybe know WTF we are doing.
Last edited by bubbers44; 30th Nov 2012 at 22:22. Reason: spelling
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By the book? Well the book has changed. Do keep up.
Maybe all those years of experience have shown the likes of Boeing and Airbus that there are better ways of doing things. Ever think about that? Or would you like to stay rigidly stuck in the 70s?
Maybe all those years of experience have shown the likes of Boeing and Airbus that there are better ways of doing things. Ever think about that? Or would you like to stay rigidly stuck in the 70s?
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None of my aviation books were writen in the 70's. My Boeing 757 and 767 manuals were written when they were manufactured, not before. Once again you have shown you can't show any credibility, just BS. Do a lot of your Fo's put you on their do not fly list? If I was a lot younger, I would.
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My Boeing 757 and 767 manuals were written when they were manufactured, not before.
Flap 30 AND flap 25 are both perfectly normal flap settings and there are very good reasons for using both.
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Bubbers, dear chap, were you or were you not flying 40 years ago? That was the 70s, you said you've never changed the way you do things, that means that you must still be doing things you were doing in the 70s. If you didn't mean that then why say it?
What revision are your manuals on? Has the content never changed?
I think that the person who doesn't know which are approved flap settings on his own aircraft has no credibility whatsoever. That's you by the way.
Finally can you please not turn this into some kind of American love in? Bubbers is really good this, SSR is very experienced that...if our want to back slap and high five each other do it in private, hoo yah! Fawning is soooooo last year.
What revision are your manuals on? Has the content never changed?
I think that the person who doesn't know which are approved flap settings on his own aircraft has no credibility whatsoever. That's you by the way.
Finally can you please not turn this into some kind of American love in? Bubbers is really good this, SSR is very experienced that...if our want to back slap and high five each other do it in private, hoo yah! Fawning is soooooo last year.
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Finally can you please not turn this into some kind of American love in? Bubbers is really good this, SSR is very experienced that...if our want to back slap and high five each other do it in private, hoo yah! Fawning is soooooo last year.
and i see the usual pprune +20000 hours airliner captains are also already here. uh, it might get a bumpy flight
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Finally can you please not turn this into some kind of American love in? Bubbers is really good this, SSR is very experienced that...if our want to back slap and high five each other do it in private, hoo yah! Fawning is soooooo last year.
Use the flap settings that book tells you to use. Can't be any simpler than that. Once you change standard FAA/Company/manufacturer's procedures, you cease being a line pilot and become a test pilot. We are not paid to be test pilots.
Except of course if you are paid to be a test pilot.
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Con, I haven't "bashed" anybody, on this thread at least.
Blowing somebody else's trumpet as if it's some kind of show of force isn't really the best way to counter argue is it now.
Besides, people aren't just disagreeing with me they're disagreeing with aircraft manufacturers AND the test pilots.
Sheesh, I knew Americans were sensitive but not this sensitive.
P.S. I have done test flights for my previous company but wasn't paid in kind
Blowing somebody else's trumpet as if it's some kind of show of force isn't really the best way to counter argue is it now.
Besides, people aren't just disagreeing with me they're disagreeing with aircraft manufacturers AND the test pilots.
Sheesh, I knew Americans were sensitive but not this sensitive.
P.S. I have done test flights for my previous company but wasn't paid in kind
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Spandex, I guess this could go on forever so maybe we should just say "use your own judgement on what flap setting you want as long as it is legal and safe". It would be nice if you didn't PO your FO if he didn't do something the same way you would safely. I always let them because they are going to be in my seat soon and hopefully when they get there they won't act like you do. Have a nice life.