B737 cold weather operations
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Joined: Jun 2010
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From: Third world country
B737 cold weather operations
Evening everyone.
Tried to contact several Alaska airlines pilots on FB to clarify the issue, but noone answered. North located airline experience is what we need to teach from.
Our SOP uses standart Boeing ops, as a result - lots of questions and doubts are up in the air
1) what is the reference temperature for 0-40 flaps movement in your SOP? We use 0°C, but many fellows find this value silly and so forth...
2) do you guys turn the probe heat on preflight when its for ex. -2 and dry&sunny?
3) how many ref temperatures do you use? We have 8 and consider its too much to memorize everything easily.
I will share more questions later on. Hope, right guys come here to help out. Cheers.
Tried to contact several Alaska airlines pilots on FB to clarify the issue, but noone answered. North located airline experience is what we need to teach from.
Our SOP uses standart Boeing ops, as a result - lots of questions and doubts are up in the air
1) what is the reference temperature for 0-40 flaps movement in your SOP? We use 0°C, but many fellows find this value silly and so forth...
2) do you guys turn the probe heat on preflight when its for ex. -2 and dry&sunny?
3) how many ref temperatures do you use? We have 8 and consider its too much to memorize everything easily.
I will share more questions later on. Hope, right guys come here to help out. Cheers.
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: I wouldn't know.
1) Since the check is done for freedom of movement in freezing conditions i would use 0° C as well, as does my company. And of course whenever deicing is needed, after deicing is finished, but usually the temperature is below 0° by then.
2) Per SOP we do, just before reading the preflight checklist. Newer Airplanes have an AUTO-Position instead of off, they start to heat up on their own whenever an engine is running.
3) Ref speeds are determined by the EFB performance program. Therefore we don't have a fixed number of speeds to memorize. If the runway is both contaminated and has degraded braking action we have to calculate both values and take the more limiting one.
2) Per SOP we do, just before reading the preflight checklist. Newer Airplanes have an AUTO-Position instead of off, they start to heat up on their own whenever an engine is running.
3) Ref speeds are determined by the EFB performance program. Therefore we don't have a fixed number of speeds to memorize. If the runway is both contaminated and has degraded braking action we have to calculate both values and take the more limiting one.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2010
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From: Third world country
3) by saying refference temperature, i mean different temperature values, that we use as a trigger. We have +10, +5, +3, +0, -15, -18, -35, -40 and looks like it's too complicated. SOP is being frequently changed, so, we hope to improve something about it.
Thread Starter
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From: Third world country
Denti, thanks for answer, could you please detalise 2nd question? What is it said about weather conditions (temperature and moisture) regarding probe heat?
Like, +9, sunny, dry. Are you supposed to turn em on before checklist? That's what we do now!
Like, +9, sunny, dry. Are you supposed to turn em on before checklist? That's what we do now!
Last edited by Navigator-134; 28th September 2012 at 19:05.
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: Ankh Morpork, DW
Alaska doesn't do a check for full flap travel. AS SOP calls for delaying flap extension if taxiing through slush, etc., and it also calls for not fully retracting flaps after landing if encountering significant icing while on approach.
I'll add it to the list of differences between AS SOP and Boeing SOP.
I'll add it to the list of differences between AS SOP and Boeing SOP.
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: I wouldn't know.
As for the second question, no, at +9°C, sunny and dry we would not switch on the pitot tubes on the stand, only after engine start (e.g. normal procedure, not supplemental normal).
For reference temperatures, sorry for my misunderstanding there, we use +10 (max OAT for wing/engine anti ice), +3 (runup required at or below if anti ice is needed), 0 (below cold temperature correction is needed except for corrected approaches (all baro VNAV approaches) and -40 (cold soaked engine).
IC, according to "my" version of the supplemental normal procedures cold weather the flap deployment should be delayed until line up if taxying through slush etc is expected, if the wings are contaminated and have to be deiced keep the flaps up until deice is done. So when to do the full travel check depends on outside conditions and the need for deicing. For flap retraction after landing it tells us to max retract them to F15 if ice acummulation is possible due to prolonged operation in icing conditions with flaps extended, or when operating on a contaminated runway/taxiway.
For reference temperatures, sorry for my misunderstanding there, we use +10 (max OAT for wing/engine anti ice), +3 (runup required at or below if anti ice is needed), 0 (below cold temperature correction is needed except for corrected approaches (all baro VNAV approaches) and -40 (cold soaked engine).
IC, according to "my" version of the supplemental normal procedures cold weather the flap deployment should be delayed until line up if taxying through slush etc is expected, if the wings are contaminated and have to be deiced keep the flaps up until deice is done. So when to do the full travel check depends on outside conditions and the need for deicing. For flap retraction after landing it tells us to max retract them to F15 if ice acummulation is possible due to prolonged operation in icing conditions with flaps extended, or when operating on a contaminated runway/taxiway.
Last edited by Denti; 28th September 2012 at 21:40.
Thread Starter
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From: Third world country
Thanks for answering.
So, what are the requirements for earlier probes heating? Temperature only or moisture/water/slush also?
-5 and dry&sunny for example?
Guys, who else doesn't' check flaps freedom movement?
So, what are the requirements for earlier probes heating? Temperature only or moisture/water/slush also?
-5 and dry&sunny for example?
Guys, who else doesn't' check flaps freedom movement?
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From: ISTANBUL\TURKEY
Contaminated runway weight adjustment
Hello everybody,
I would ilke to ask that if a runway covered less than 10% slush with 5 mm depth.The term contaminated is definde as 25 % of runway.Do we accept it contaminated or not?Because it is less than 25%?Which weight reduction table do we have to use?
I would ilke to ask that if a runway covered less than 10% slush with 5 mm depth.The term contaminated is definde as 25 % of runway.Do we accept it contaminated or not?Because it is less than 25%?Which weight reduction table do we have to use?
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: S51 30 W060 10.
Hi,
The 0-40 flap cycle does not depend solely on temperature. It depends on how long the airplane sat there before engine start as well.
The probe heat can be turned on during the cockpit prep during cold weather ops, nothing will happen to them. You don´t turn them off when you are number 6 for takeoff on a 40°C day, no need to not turn them on during preflight cold wx.
Keep in mind that if you are going go thru a supplementary procedure and start deferring this, delaying that, not doing this, etc, you risk forgetting something important, while there is little to no benefit from the other exceptions or modifications to what the procedure says.
Don´t forget there is a difference between cold weather operation, and icing conditions. That is probably the one thing you need to keep in mind when deciding what items of a cold weather supp procedure you will consider unnecesary, such as the flap cycle, or early probe heat.
Hope it helps.
SW.
The 0-40 flap cycle does not depend solely on temperature. It depends on how long the airplane sat there before engine start as well.
The probe heat can be turned on during the cockpit prep during cold weather ops, nothing will happen to them. You don´t turn them off when you are number 6 for takeoff on a 40°C day, no need to not turn them on during preflight cold wx.
Keep in mind that if you are going go thru a supplementary procedure and start deferring this, delaying that, not doing this, etc, you risk forgetting something important, while there is little to no benefit from the other exceptions or modifications to what the procedure says.
Don´t forget there is a difference between cold weather operation, and icing conditions. That is probably the one thing you need to keep in mind when deciding what items of a cold weather supp procedure you will consider unnecesary, such as the flap cycle, or early probe heat.
Hope it helps.
SW.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Almost horizontal
So you guys haven't been doing it then???
Boeing 737-800
FCOM 1
SP 16 - adverse weather, before taxi procedure
Flaps ............................................................ ........................Check F/O
Move the flaps from Flaps up to Flaps 40 back to Flaps up (i.e., full travel) to ensure freedom of movement.
Boeing 737-800
FCOM 1
SP 16 - adverse weather, before taxi procedure
Flaps ............................................................ ........................Check F/O
Move the flaps from Flaps up to Flaps 40 back to Flaps up (i.e., full travel) to ensure freedom of movement.
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Canada
How about you contact First Air and ask this question? today the warmest place they will be landing at is Minus 31 Deg C, they do it every day 365 days a year.
Last edited by clunckdriver; 23rd January 2013 at 11:13.
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: In a far better place
Our Supplementary Normals for cold weather ops
Flap 0 to 40. Then delay extension if taxi route is to take you through the usual muck.
Probe heat on after normal preflight procedure.
Flap 0 to 40. Then delay extension if taxi route is to take you through the usual muck.
Probe heat on after normal preflight procedure.
Last edited by captjns; 23rd January 2013 at 11:27.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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From: UK
And what would happen on a wing full of ice?
The retraction to >10 degrees after landing is VITAL if there is any possibility of any accumulation of frozen stuff anywhere in the flaps. Particular area is using reverse on a snow/ice contaminated runway when it is more than possible to 'pack' the LEDs with crud. Leaving them at F15 means they will not move.
Last edited by BOAC; 23rd January 2013 at 12:29.
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From: last time I looked I was still here.
Moving away from flaps, but staying in the 'cold Wx ops' scene:
Opinions please: In freezing conditions on the ground, and especially if there is precipitation, I used to start one engine and then switch on EAI for it (keep it warm and cosy on a cold day) and then start the 2nd engine. I was in my 1st sim recurrent training in a newly joined airline when I was rapped over the knuckles in the sim by an F/O SFI and told" we don't do that here." Ah, "but FCTM says that EAI has to be on when icing conditions are anticipated or encountered. It is snowing." Water off a ducks back. Lo & behold the new FCOM SOP came out and it stated," EAI will be switched on after both engines are started."
Opinions & comments?
Opinions please: In freezing conditions on the ground, and especially if there is precipitation, I used to start one engine and then switch on EAI for it (keep it warm and cosy on a cold day) and then start the 2nd engine. I was in my 1st sim recurrent training in a newly joined airline when I was rapped over the knuckles in the sim by an F/O SFI and told" we don't do that here." Ah, "but FCTM says that EAI has to be on when icing conditions are anticipated or encountered. It is snowing." Water off a ducks back. Lo & behold the new FCOM SOP came out and it stated," EAI will be switched on after both engines are started."
Opinions & comments?
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From: Home soon
RAT 5
When you do a supp procedural engine start,(ie cold w)will the procedure tell you to switch on the TAI after both engines start or one at a time?
I personally select TAI during the after engine start flow.I am pretty sure it is standard.
When you do a supp procedural engine start,(ie cold w)will the procedure tell you to switch on the TAI after both engines start or one at a time?
I personally select TAI during the after engine start flow.I am pretty sure it is standard.
Last edited by de facto; 23rd January 2013 at 16:27.