AF 447 Thread No. 10
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Any representation of raw data in any other form other than the source numbers is manipulation unless the original scale is maintained and molestation of the timeline is avoided.
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I don't think the scale and timeline have been altered to the best of my knowledge. Unfortunately the PDF conversion has rendered the graphs in a relatively low resolution, but they're still readable.
What I was getting at (as I'm sure you're aware) was whether certain posters believe that the data was deliberately altered to say something other than what was on the DFDR, and what reason they have for thinking that may be the case.
For the record, I think the data is genuine.
What I was getting at (as I'm sure you're aware) was whether certain posters believe that the data was deliberately altered to say something other than what was on the DFDR, and what reason they have for thinking that may be the case.
For the record, I think the data is genuine.
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Data, data - you say genuine, I say véritable
Every DFDR/FDR data output set that I have ever laid eyes upon contains data points that do not fit the overall picture. Some are spurious and unavoidable due to monitoring and data collection system limitations and are rejected unless they fit a pattern under investigation. Other odd bits are known transducer noise anomalies. In a highly digital aircraft such as the Airbus or most modern Boeings, most of the raw transducer anomalies are filtered before they get to any exterior data bus. The DFDR, by virtue of its design, recording limitations, and things like the time slice paradox, does a bit of filtering itself.
Now, take what is left, and try to paint a perfectly accurate picture of exactly what was happening and when - it can't be done, however a reasonably accurate representation of the various parameters is what we have to work with, and in most cases, this is enough for forensic analysis.
On to the public release - the mere act of taking those fiddled numbers and placing them on a chart is once again a manipulation of the raw data. Subtle, and mostly innocuous, but the movement away from fidelity is incontrovertible and obvious to those who have seen the raw traces.
Now, take what is left, and try to paint a perfectly accurate picture of exactly what was happening and when - it can't be done, however a reasonably accurate representation of the various parameters is what we have to work with, and in most cases, this is enough for forensic analysis.
On to the public release - the mere act of taking those fiddled numbers and placing them on a chart is once again a manipulation of the raw data. Subtle, and mostly innocuous, but the movement away from fidelity is incontrovertible and obvious to those who have seen the raw traces.
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Dozy
To me, It is not necessary to accuse anyone of anything. The report and its genesis are self explanatory. Without the fullness of the Data, in its entirety, the report is misleading beginning on its face page. Purposefully? I cannot say, but again that does not matter either. Everything in view is "interpreted", and left to the imagination.
What's left is what matters, corroboratory, exculpatory, and further room for doubt. What is not included would frame nicely the part that is published, right wrong or indifferent.
It is a "managed" document, apparently satisfactory for most, and dissatisfying for some....
Motive? Who gives a rats behind, the damage is done. "Intent" is loaded with nuance. Nuance has no business in a report that is intended to be a complete and factual record....
Were these gents actually that silent? Speaking prophetically and sparingly to a conclusion of their own incompetence? They had several minutes to bring to bear the sum of their 10000 hours.
It is the height of injustice to not allow them to be heard in the arena of fairness, by experts who can use discretion and somber reflection, toward a result of added wisdom.
They perished fighting a kind of flying that is rightfully held in awe, and fear, by sane and experienced transport pilots.
Their legacy deserves a hearing, by others than those who have thus far prevented one.
I do not wish to hear it. I wish for some neutral and wise party to judge and report what happened. BEA does not qualify in that regard.
That is why Data is necessary, to remove doubt.
What I was getting at (as I'm sure you're aware) was whether certain posters believe that the data was deliberately altered to say something other than what was on the DFDR, and what reason they have for thinking that may be the case.
What's left is what matters, corroboratory, exculpatory, and further room for doubt. What is not included would frame nicely the part that is published, right wrong or indifferent.
It is a "managed" document, apparently satisfactory for most, and dissatisfying for some....
Motive? Who gives a rats behind, the damage is done. "Intent" is loaded with nuance. Nuance has no business in a report that is intended to be a complete and factual record....
Were these gents actually that silent? Speaking prophetically and sparingly to a conclusion of their own incompetence? They had several minutes to bring to bear the sum of their 10000 hours.
It is the height of injustice to not allow them to be heard in the arena of fairness, by experts who can use discretion and somber reflection, toward a result of added wisdom.
They perished fighting a kind of flying that is rightfully held in awe, and fear, by sane and experienced transport pilots.
Their legacy deserves a hearing, by others than those who have thus far prevented one.
I do not wish to hear it. I wish for some neutral and wise party to judge and report what happened. BEA does not qualify in that regard.
That is why Data is necessary, to remove doubt.
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On to the public release - the mere act of taking those fiddled numbers and placing them on a chart is once again a manipulation of the raw data. Subtle, and mostly innocuous, but the movement away from fidelity is incontrovertible and obvious to those who have seen the raw traces.
It is a "managed" document, apparently satisfactory for most, and dissatisfying for some....
It is the height of injustice to not allow them to be heard in the arena of fairness, by experts who can use discretion and somber reflection, toward a result of added wisdom.
I do not wish to hear it. I wish for some neutral and wise party to judge and report what happened. BEA does not qualify in that regard.
Last edited by DozyWannabe; 12th Mar 2013 at 20:04.
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To the best of my knowledge, no accident investigation has released raw DFDR data in its entirety.
Find here the Sharm El Sheik accident report (Egyptian report) with FDR listing (from pages 96 to 305!)
Download Report Charm pdf - upload, email & send large files up to 1GB for free!
And in France also .. FDR listings are sometime released to the public ...
Download Listing FDF France jpg - upload, email & send large files up to 1GB for free!
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Last time I tried to download those it tried to put a trojan on my computer. Hopefully I'll have more luck this time...
I note that the second (French) document dates to 1990. Given that there were far fewer methods at that time to render such data graphically and in an easily-readable format, could it not be that the graphical method used by the BEA now is simply a tool of convenience?
I note that the second (French) document dates to 1990. Given that there were far fewer methods at that time to render such data graphically and in an easily-readable format, could it not be that the graphical method used by the BEA now is simply a tool of convenience?
Last edited by DozyWannabe; 12th Mar 2013 at 20:34.
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ical
Whether you accept it or no, the BEA fail neutrality and wisdom both, by definition, and at Law.
They are an arm of the FRENCH government, which has an enormous stake in the outcome. There are economic and political repercussions.
BEA themselves would demur as to wisdom, for wisdom bears judgment, and BEA may not judge.
My opinion.
They are an arm of the FRENCH government, which has an enormous stake in the outcome. There are economic and political repercussions.
BEA themselves would demur as to wisdom, for wisdom bears judgment, and BEA may not judge.
My opinion.
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Precisely, my friend.
Both words describe an alteration, or better, interpretation if you will, of the raw numbers. Perhaps one has a negative connotation that should be avoided?
The numbers aren't "fiddled". Filtered, maybe - but no more so than is normal for this kind of process and certainly not due to direct human intervention.
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Lyman,
It seems to me you are taking the case where the basic facts of the cause of this accident are well understood and attempting to make them less understood with your unsubstantiated theories, imagination and innuendoes.
Below is the released data, CVR and FDR from the BEA. That's all there is. In the absence of the Captain, the PF & the PNF stalled the airplane, never figured out they were stalled and upon the return of the Captain, he couldn't unravel what had taken place and what was happening in time to make a difference.
http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp...nexe.01.en.pdf
http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp...nexe.02.en.pdf
I don't agree. It has certainly focused attention on high altitude, high speed manual flying as well as what to do and not do should UAS suddenly happen. So far, there has not been a repeat so there has been learning going on, one would think, not all has been squandered.
I am trying to make a case for more understanding of this accident, not less.
Below is the released data, CVR and FDR from the BEA. That's all there is. In the absence of the Captain, the PF & the PNF stalled the airplane, never figured out they were stalled and upon the return of the Captain, he couldn't unravel what had taken place and what was happening in time to make a difference.
http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp...nexe.01.en.pdf
http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp...nexe.02.en.pdf
And here, an opportunity to learn, squandered.
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I ask again, are you insinuating the BEA's complicity in a cover-up?
There are economic and political repercussions.
BEA may not judge.
* - Which in turn allows them to present the same amount of data that would take thousands of pages rendered numerically into less than ten pages graphically.
Last edited by DozyWannabe; 12th Mar 2013 at 20:55.
True but irrelevant. Do classic controls always produce the same aeroplane response for the same yoke displacement or it depends on weight, C.G., speed, altitude? Proper way to fly passenger transport aeroplane is by attitude indicator, not by feel.
Who checks THS position on classics after take-off anyway?
You comment to me there is not on point, as I was referring to response rates, a feature which will be found in any aircraft that has hydraulic/electro mechanisms in the linkages between pilot input and flight control surface movement. As I understand it from those folks who fly the A330, the response rates are just fine in normal flying. No surprise, I imagine the AB engineers and test pilots did a lot of work together to get that "just right" before deliveries started ...
When required attitude and performance is achieved, residual trim force is trimmed out but notice taken of trim position after trimming - naaaaaaay.
Cheers.
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LW_50, I suspect that while Clandestino's point is referring to your post he is - as usual - addressing the gallery and not you specifically. As far as I can tell you're singing from the same hymn sheet, and I wouldn't take it personally.
For good or for ill, he does tend to go off like a hand-grenade!
For good or for ill, he does tend to go off like a hand-grenade!
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Dozy you make some good points re: the report.
It is what it is. I have high expectations, and am irritated at the "sole source" aspect of the system as expressed currently. It has the flavor of secrecy, something that is repellent in a free society.
It does not feel or appear right that evidence can go unseen by all but one group. I would favor an Ombudsman to represent neutrality. Certainly at the level of International Aero Commerce....
Whether or not there was bias, the system is set up to create the appearance of prejudice, at least to me.
It's been a great ride, thank you for all the energetic point counterpoint. I do not know about you but I have learned alot, and you have been a source of some of that new knowledge, so thanks....
It is what it is. I have high expectations, and am irritated at the "sole source" aspect of the system as expressed currently. It has the flavor of secrecy, something that is repellent in a free society.
It does not feel or appear right that evidence can go unseen by all but one group. I would favor an Ombudsman to represent neutrality. Certainly at the level of International Aero Commerce....
Whether or not there was bias, the system is set up to create the appearance of prejudice, at least to me.
It's been a great ride, thank you for all the energetic point counterpoint. I do not know about you but I have learned alot, and you have been a source of some of that new knowledge, so thanks....
Last edited by Lyman; 13th Mar 2013 at 00:05.
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Cheers.
How so? The only reason the BEA has been the primary investigatory agency with little outside influence is because no other agency has asked to join in at that level. Don't forget that in the case of the Mt. St. Odile accident (probably mindful of the press assertions regarding AF296) the BEA invited an NTSB team in to check their work.
And yet the NTSB has been the sole investigatory authority for US-made airframes flown by US-based airlines for decades without similar aspersions being cast - why the double standard?
There's a scar in the earth of the Ermenonville forest just north of Paris that serves as a constant reminder to the French of the folly of sweeping airliner design problems under the carpet. To this day it still pushes bits of metal and bone to the surface. It's a lesson that only needs to be taught once.
It is what it is. I have high expectations, and am irritated at the "sole source" aspect of the system as expressed currently. It has the flavor of secrecy, something that is repellent in a free society.
Whether or not there was bias, the system is set up to create the appearance of prejudice, at least to me.
There's a scar in the earth of the Ermenonville forest just north of Paris that serves as a constant reminder to the French of the folly of sweeping airliner design problems under the carpet. To this day it still pushes bits of metal and bone to the surface. It's a lesson that only needs to be taught once.
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It's not an alteration of the numbers (as they came out of the DFDR), it is simply a graphical rendering*.
* - Which in turn allows them to present the same amount of data that would take thousands of pages rendered numerically into less than ten pages graphically.
* - Which in turn allows them to present the same amount of data that would take thousands of pages rendered numerically into less than ten pages graphically.
The graphic is their press article and their source is the FDR listing
You can not force a journalist to give his source .. because it is protected by law
Dozy: I understand and see something similar. What I fell needs an answer is taking a comment I make somewhat out of context.
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@jcj:
Not quite - the data is verbatim from the DFDR, it's just rendered differently - i.e. the formatting has changed but the data has not. Ironically, you could make a case that it's like what passes for "journalism" these days (i.e. slapping a byline on a pre-written press release and leaving it unchanged), but that's different.
@LW_50:
Sure, and he's misrepresented me once or twice in the heat of the moment - he's usually happy to take it back though, and I'd much rather have him inside the tent than outside!
Not quite - the data is verbatim from the DFDR, it's just rendered differently - i.e. the formatting has changed but the data has not. Ironically, you could make a case that it's like what passes for "journalism" these days (i.e. slapping a byline on a pre-written press release and leaving it unchanged), but that's different.
@LW_50:
Sure, and he's misrepresented me once or twice in the heat of the moment - he's usually happy to take it back though, and I'd much rather have him inside the tent than outside!
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Dozy
You create the double standard by defining it, and you haven't let me agree. There is no difference in the lack of suitability NTSB/BEA to perform their mission.
The environment for both is populated by people whose job descriptions are written by other people, similarly situated....
The conflict is glaringly obvious, to deny it, is, well, denial....
These folks are BUDS. It is not fair to demand intellectul isolation of the investigators from their confreres. It goes against human nature, and in and of itself creates the conflict.
Assuming people can easily transform themselves into Solomon, is patently ridicilous, and childish.
"Ombudsman"......eliminating the potential, and hence reality, of conflicts.
"Peer".....QED
And yet the NTSB has been the sole investigatory authority for US-made airframes flown by US-based airlines for decades without similar aspersions being cast - why the double standard?
The environment for both is populated by people whose job descriptions are written by other people, similarly situated....
The conflict is glaringly obvious, to deny it, is, well, denial....
These folks are BUDS. It is not fair to demand intellectul isolation of the investigators from their confreres. It goes against human nature, and in and of itself creates the conflict.
Assuming people can easily transform themselves into Solomon, is patently ridicilous, and childish.
"Ombudsman"......eliminating the potential, and hence reality, of conflicts.
"Peer".....QED
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"Ombudsman"......eliminating the potential, and hence reality, of conflicts.
One major limitation to this system is that the investigatory agencies only come into play after something has gone wrong - Air France's troubled recent history was well-known amongst the piloting fraternity, but it took something drastic to allow the BEA to investigate. Another limitation is that the regulators cannot be compelled to act on the recommendations of the investigators, but that's for another time.