AF 447 Thread No. 10
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Lyman,
At 02:12:44 the pitch is about level, the V/S is 15000 fpm, the stall warning is operating, and the captain says "(!) it's impossible".
If the nose is pointing up, the airplane should be going up, doesn't it? Hence the verbal confusion about going up or down. Are they talking of attitude or vertical speed?
At 02:12:44 the pitch is about level, the V/S is 15000 fpm, the stall warning is operating, and the captain says "(!) it's impossible".
If the nose is pointing up, the airplane should be going up, doesn't it? Hence the verbal confusion about going up or down. Are they talking of attitude or vertical speed?
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HazelNuts39
Both, I would say. What was Airspeed, I doubt Captain would claim "impossible" with only two cues?
If airspeed was <150knots, would he not command "Nose Down"? Where were the elevators at this time?
FTM, where was THS? But we know that, did he look? MAXNU? He might well be expressing chagrin at the THS' (apparent) lack of response "Why so 'stuck'....."
Both, I would say. What was Airspeed, I doubt Captain would claim "impossible" with only two cues?
If airspeed was <150knots, would he not command "Nose Down"? Where were the elevators at this time?
FTM, where was THS? But we know that, did he look? MAXNU? He might well be expressing chagrin at the THS' (apparent) lack of response "Why so 'stuck'....."
Last edited by Lyman; 11th Mar 2013 at 21:10.
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llagonne66
Indeed ...
But .. for observe what ?
What were their powers?
What phases of the investigation do they have observed or potentially participate ?
Representative of French families have asked for an observer .. this was refused
also nominated observers as some of their citizens were among the victims
But .. for observe what ?
What were their powers?
What phases of the investigation do they have observed or potentially participate ?
Representative of French families have asked for an observer .. this was refused
Last edited by jcjeant; 11th Mar 2013 at 21:14.
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llagonne66
Dependent on which of the two circles you claim as residence, Where then is the data? The complete data?
There is no record of most of the record of the CVR, transcript or audio form.
Your question is not relevant, it has no benefit other than rhetoric. My question is a simple one, who has the record, is it available?
Can you answer that (honest) question?
My claim is not of conspiracy whatsoever. Someone has not released the data.
Prove me wrong? Until mine is answered, yours is merely an implication, unprovable.....
merci le cirque
Dependent on which of the two circles you claim as residence, Where then is the data? The complete data?
There is no record of most of the record of the CVR, transcript or audio form.
Your question is not relevant, it has no benefit other than rhetoric. My question is a simple one, who has the record, is it available?
Can you answer that (honest) question?
My claim is not of conspiracy whatsoever. Someone has not released the data.
Prove me wrong? Until mine is answered, yours is merely an implication, unprovable.....
merci le cirque
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Lyman,
As HazelNuts39 has pointed out the time listed above, the altitude was 20,028 ft. At 02:13:32, less than one minute later, the altitude was 10,092 ft.
It would seem to me that had the Captain recognized the situation at 02:12:44, that indeed they were fully stalled and falling fast, it was marginal the airplane could be saved applying significant nose down and holding it for a significant period of time. Less than a minute later, it became impossible. Debating the THS position, the elevator position, nose up, nose down, Side-stick visible, side-stick not visible, side-stick forward, side-stick back, it was too late. The Captain's words "it's impossible" prophetically applied to a possible recovery although I don't think that was what he was referring to at the time.
At 02:12:44 the pitch is about level, the V/S is 15000 fpm, the stall warning is operating, and the captain says "(!) it's impossible".
It would seem to me that had the Captain recognized the situation at 02:12:44, that indeed they were fully stalled and falling fast, it was marginal the airplane could be saved applying significant nose down and holding it for a significant period of time. Less than a minute later, it became impossible. Debating the THS position, the elevator position, nose up, nose down, Side-stick visible, side-stick not visible, side-stick forward, side-stick back, it was too late. The Captain's words "it's impossible" prophetically applied to a possible recovery although I don't think that was what he was referring to at the time.
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lyman, jcjeant
So much have been said over and over again that I can just go back almost two years ago.
http://www.pprune.org/6426258-post568.html
I have not changed my mind since that post.
Point taken : I should not have reacted to your unending ramblings about the BEA hiding the truth .
So please go on and on and on and on ... I'll watch from the shadows
http://www.pprune.org/6426258-post568.html
I have not changed my mind since that post.
Point taken : I should not have reacted to your unending ramblings about the BEA hiding the truth .
So please go on and on and on and on ... I'll watch from the shadows
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Originally Posted by llagonne66
Of course, all the people involved in this tremendous feat have done all that just to tinker with the data contained in the boxes.
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Turbine D,
The captain recognized at 02:12:44 that they were fully stalled, and one minute later when the pitch attitude was 15 degrees NU he said only "no no no don't climb" ???
EDIT: If you recognize you are stalled there's only one thing to do: recover. At 20,000 ft you don't ask yourselves whether recovery is still possible.
The captain recognized at 02:12:44 that they were fully stalled, and one minute later when the pitch attitude was 15 degrees NU he said only "no no no don't climb" ???
EDIT: If you recognize you are stalled there's only one thing to do: recover. At 20,000 ft you don't ask yourselves whether recovery is still possible.
Last edited by HazelNuts39; 11th Mar 2013 at 22:45.
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As HazelNuts39 has pointed out the time listed above, (2:12:44) the altitude was 20,028 ft. At 02:13:32, less than one minute later, the altitude was 10,092 ft.
That means the VS reduced substantially. Very substantially. What happened that was "Impossible" that drastically reduced their Vertical descent? Greatly increased forward velocity?
The lack of evidence, evidence that surely exists, would, I believe , provide answers. Answers that are invaluable to the safety of flight.
I do not believe in conspiracies, especially here. The lack of evidence is a fact. There is a demonstrable refusal to disclose the information. I could not care less the reasons for witholding it.
It is witheld, end of. That has f-all to do with sinister planning to commit a crime. (The legal definition of "criminal conspiracy").
Some imaginations are at high speed. One can accept the BEA report in the absence of full disclosure, or reject it. And anywhere in beween.
I do not trust it.
"The absence of FULL DISCLOSURE, is a species of FRAUD"
SUPREME COURT.....
Last edited by Lyman; 11th Mar 2013 at 22:59.
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Originally Posted by Lyman
What happened that was "Impossible" that drastically reduced their Vertical descent? Greatly increased forward velocity?
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If VS reduced at a constant rate, would it not be ~5000 fpm at 10000 feet?
Averaging 10000fpm for that portion of vertical descent?
Would that have elicited some conversation in the cockpit?
Averaging 10000fpm for that portion of vertical descent?
Would that have elicited some conversation in the cockpit?
Originally Posted by bubbers44
The captain had no time to deal with the upset.
Originally Posted by bubbers44
He wouldn't have done what they did but came in too late to help.
Originally Posted by Lyman
You instantly grok the attitude, ten degrees NU, and you proclaim, "Mon dieu mon petit chou, you have STALLED our cherie"....
Originally Posted by Lyman
you sense an immediate lessening of the chaotic airstream
Originally Posted by bubbers44
They need to build experience, not just pushing buttons, but flying the aircraft.
Originally Posted by Lyman
The general conclusion is that Captain cannot see the Stick, and assumes Bonin has Nose Down, input....
Originally Posted by Lyman
These are two desperate pilots attempting to figure out INOP or problematic controls.
Originally Posted by Lyman
BONIN has tried both NU AND ND,
Originally Posted by Lyman
He is satisfied the controls are NOT WORKING.
Originally Posted by Lyman
It is IMPOSSIBLE that these two are on different pages,
Originally Posted by Lyman
they both know there is a problem, both have tried conformed, and reverse control positions....
Originally Posted by Lyman
Is Bonin referring to loss of control BEFORE THE CLIMB?
Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50
I realize there are two related elements to the rate of response of nose position inputs: elevator command and THS trim both being part of the package in smoothly changing pitch attitude, and holding it.
Originally Posted by CONFiture
As said earlier, when the captain enters the flight deck, he has clearly eared that the STALL warning has just stopped, so for him the worst is behind as the appropriate corrective actions have obviously been taken by the crew in place.
Originally Posted by CONFiture
To the point that they will voluntary switch off 2 FCC in an attempt to regain control ...
Originally Posted by CONFiture
The Airbus sidestick concept made their life miserable as no PNF(s) is able to directly witness what kind of inputs are applied on the sidestick(s), which contributes to this elusive loss of faith in the overall flight control system.
Originally Posted by Lyman
It is not believable, and why I believe the accounts are "managed"
Originally Posted by jcjeant
But .. for observe what ?
Originally Posted by jcjeant
What were their powers?
Originally Posted by jcjeant
Representative of French families have asked for an observer .. this was refused
Originally Posted by Lyman
There is no record of most of the record of the CVR, transcript or audio form.
Originally Posted by Lyman
My question is a simple one, who has the record, is it available?
Originally Posted by Lyman
My claim is not of conspiracy whatsoever. Someone has not released the data.
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Clandestino
The entire transcript? Post it for us?
Many thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyman
My question is a simple one, who has the record, is it available?
Clandestino:
BEA has original, anyone interested has transcript. If you have internet, you can download it too.
Originally Posted by Lyman
My question is a simple one, who has the record, is it available?
Clandestino:
BEA has original, anyone interested has transcript. If you have internet, you can download it too.
Many thanks
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Lyman,
Don't know if you took Physics in High School or not, but there was a lesson some schools offered: If you drop a feather in a vacuum tube, it reaches the bottom of the tube at the same time as a marble (a tie). Add some atmosphere (air), the marble wins the race. Add even more atmosphere, the marble wins by a much bigger margin.
Now think about two feathers attached to a hay stalk falling flat in ever increasing atmosphere (more air). It falls ever slower during descent, as the air gets thicker creating more resistance, proving several important aspects of physics. Same is true of an A-330 falling nearly flat from 38,000 feet to 20,082 feet to 10,092 feet and on down.
It is not and that is why it is not ~5000 fpm at 10,000 feet.
Ever denser air is a known fact.
Is this part of the imagined "missing CVR record?"
Only if it is imagined but portrayed as being the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
At the first time, the VS was 15000. In about a minute, they fell only 10000.
Now think about two feathers attached to a hay stalk falling flat in ever increasing atmosphere (more air). It falls ever slower during descent, as the air gets thicker creating more resistance, proving several important aspects of physics. Same is true of an A-330 falling nearly flat from 38,000 feet to 20,082 feet to 10,092 feet and on down.
If VS reduced at a constant rate, would it not be ~5000 fpm at 10000 feet?
That means the VS reduced substantially. Very substantially. What happened that was "Impossible" that drastically reduced their Vertical descent? Greatly increased forward velocity?
Would that have elicited some conversation in the cockpit?
"The absence of FULL DISCLOSURE, is a species of FRAUD"
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TurbineD
Air density is a known fact, so is 15000 fpm. I think it is possible Bonin is trying to "sell" overspeed to Captain. With flat Pitch and an increase to 15k in the descent, Bonin may be showing the Captain, "Look, Nose Down, greatly enhanced loss of altitude." He then "PULLS", and the VS decreases. Remember, speeds are not to be trusted, nor is STALL.... It is only us who know they read true.
These are desperate moments, the crew will try anything, and having never experienced a STALL in a large swept wing jet, who could fault their "ingenuity"?
I am trying to make a case for more understanding of this accident, not less.
You say air density, but that implies a passive crew...I think they were innovating, what else could they do?
If you are satisfied that the investigator is satisfied, fine. Throughout, the BEA leave avenues unsearched, and leave open (apparently) room for doubt.
They expect lack of interest to help them prove their case, and they get it.
Another approach could be: "This is everything we have, here are the possibilities." "here, there is great disagreement, shouting, so, this...."
The unending theme of this unsatisfactory conclusion is "Why"? Absent the fullness of data, that remains the height of injustice. The least fair of all settlements is Blame....And here, an opportunity to learn, squandered.
Quote:
That means the VS reduced substantially. Very substantially. What happened that was "Impossible" that drastically reduced their Vertical descent? Greatly increased forward velocity?
That means the VS reduced substantially. Very substantially. What happened that was "Impossible" that drastically reduced their Vertical descent? Greatly increased forward velocity?
These are desperate moments, the crew will try anything, and having never experienced a STALL in a large swept wing jet, who could fault their "ingenuity"?
I am trying to make a case for more understanding of this accident, not less.
You say air density, but that implies a passive crew...I think they were innovating, what else could they do?
If you are satisfied that the investigator is satisfied, fine. Throughout, the BEA leave avenues unsearched, and leave open (apparently) room for doubt.
They expect lack of interest to help them prove their case, and they get it.
Another approach could be: "This is everything we have, here are the possibilities." "here, there is great disagreement, shouting, so, this...."
The unending theme of this unsatisfactory conclusion is "Why"? Absent the fullness of data, that remains the height of injustice. The least fair of all settlements is Blame....And here, an opportunity to learn, squandered.
Last edited by Lyman; 12th Mar 2013 at 08:04.
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or are you just expressing amazement that the real world's arrangement is somewhat at odds with your notion of how it ought to be?
Those families (or representative) are one of the parties interested in the investigation process like are AF Airbus and others that can be added
They are also partie of the trial to come like AF Airbus and others that can be added ..
All but the representative of families have the right to be observers
Something unfair in The Convention on International Civil Aviation
If the representative of the families had the right to sign the convention .. be sure he will
Seems it's denied to them ...
And for the release of documents to public by BEA:
The FDR listing was never released (so far)
Last edited by jcjeant; 12th Mar 2013 at 08:37.
All but the representative of families have the right to be observers
And for the release of documents to public by BEA:
The FDR listing was never released (so far)
The FDR listing was never released (so far)
Something unfair in The Convention on International Civil AviationIf the representative of the families had the right to sign the convention .. be sure he will
Seems it's denied to them ...
Seems it's denied to them ...
Originally Posted by BEA report on AF447, foreword
BEA investigations are conducted in accordance with the provisions of Regulation No
996/2010 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 October 2010 on the
investigation and prevention of accidents and incidents in civil aviation.
The BEA is the French Civil Aviation Safety Investigation Authority. Its investigations are
conducted with the sole objective of improving aviation safety and are not intended
to apportion blame or liability. BEA investigations are independent, separate and are
conducted without prejudice to any judicial or administrative action that may be taken
to determine blame or liability.
996/2010 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 October 2010 on the
investigation and prevention of accidents and incidents in civil aviation.
The BEA is the French Civil Aviation Safety Investigation Authority. Its investigations are
conducted with the sole objective of improving aviation safety and are not intended
to apportion blame or liability. BEA investigations are independent, separate and are
conducted without prejudice to any judicial or administrative action that may be taken
to determine blame or liability.
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What do you think we are basing our discussion of aeroplane's attitude altitude, control sticks and control surfaces positions on?
Not all, just the representatives of the ICAO member states that are considered to have interest in investigation such as countries where airframe, engines or systems manufacturers are located or if their citizens perished in the catastrophe
Last edited by jcjeant; 12th Mar 2013 at 15:05.
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To the best of my knowledge, no accident investigation has released raw DFDR data in its entirety.