Flaps/Slats locked. 320 question.
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I teach Flap 3 then manage speed - you are only in selected speed until final flap. Fly managed after that.
For landing slats and flaps at zero, I teach select Vref + 60, then at 500 feet manage speed (Vref + 50). Works a treat.
There is nothing in FCOM about not using managed speeds for landing.
For landing slats and flaps at zero, I teach select Vref + 60, then at 500 feet manage speed (Vref + 50). Works a treat.
There is nothing in FCOM about not using managed speeds for landing.
-Approach with selected speed is recommended.
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RR,
During a Boeing approach, you try to maintain a constant speed by changing power. You oscillate around this speed, generally your trim is constant as you return to datums after any disturbance.
During an Airbus approach with GsMini active, your datum speed can change by 40 knots. As such, your power, speed hence trim will change, requiring you to retrim during the whole approach, which is challenging when you also have to adjust power. Hence what Airbus recommends is going to Conf3, getting speed stable, allow the aircraft to sort the trim, then Gear down.
Anyhow, say this did happen and you flew an approach which had a incident. The authorities are going to look at the way you flew that approach against the SOP's, bearing in mind the FCTM quotes you MUST use selected. If you think managed is a good idea, why not put it to Airbus?
During a Boeing approach, you try to maintain a constant speed by changing power. You oscillate around this speed, generally your trim is constant as you return to datums after any disturbance.
During an Airbus approach with GsMini active, your datum speed can change by 40 knots. As such, your power, speed hence trim will change, requiring you to retrim during the whole approach, which is challenging when you also have to adjust power. Hence what Airbus recommends is going to Conf3, getting speed stable, allow the aircraft to sort the trim, then Gear down.
Anyhow, say this did happen and you flew an approach which had a incident. The authorities are going to look at the way you flew that approach against the SOP's, bearing in mind the FCTM quotes you MUST use selected. If you think managed is a good idea, why not put it to Airbus?
Hi Cough,
My understanding is that you only go Flap 3 then gear down for green and yellow failure - not for all direct law landings.
Do you have a reference for that?
My understanding is that you only go Flap 3 then gear down for green and yellow failure - not for all direct law landings.
Do you have a reference for that?
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Hello aristoclis,
If in these situations you recommend selected speeds,then do you feed Vapp in the MCDU?If yes, for what?
Hi kellykelpie,
While I agree with you,in that Flaps3 and gear down is mentioned in FCOM for G+Y failure only,a large number of airbus pilots tend to use this for most situations of alternate law leading to direct law.
In SIM sessions,I do find the issue of slected or managed Vapp after final configuration in case of Flaps/slats fault/locked and Flaps2/or Flaps3 and gear down varying with pilots and trainers.
Looking for some more inputs.Thanks
If in these situations you recommend selected speeds,then do you feed Vapp in the MCDU?If yes, for what?
Hi kellykelpie,
While I agree with you,in that Flaps3 and gear down is mentioned in FCOM for G+Y failure only,a large number of airbus pilots tend to use this for most situations of alternate law leading to direct law.
In SIM sessions,I do find the issue of slected or managed Vapp after final configuration in case of Flaps/slats fault/locked and Flaps2/or Flaps3 and gear down varying with pilots and trainers.
Looking for some more inputs.Thanks
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Hi 320p,
It is not me, it is Airbus that recommends selected speeds according to FCOM and QRH. If you then use selected speed the vapp input in the MCDU will be only a reminder (as is engine out acceleration altitude for example).
It is not me, it is Airbus that recommends selected speeds according to FCOM and QRH. If you then use selected speed the vapp input in the MCDU will be only a reminder (as is engine out acceleration altitude for example).
Interesting discussion - i'll check out the references give regarding use of selected speed.
Does anyone know why the max speed with Flaps locked at zero but slats at 3 is 200 knots in the table? Why isn't it 185? If you maintain max speed - 10 in the go around (i.e 190) in this config, won't you get an overspeed?
Does anyone know why the max speed with Flaps locked at zero but slats at 3 is 200 knots in the table? Why isn't it 185? If you maintain max speed - 10 in the go around (i.e 190) in this config, won't you get an overspeed?
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Hi kellykelpie,
I think you've forgotten Airbus "logic" of naming the slats position.
The slats position corresponds to the handle position - (not to their actual position). When you have the handle in pos 2, the Slats run to pos 2 - but they don't extend any more at handle position 3.
With Flaps Full, the slats extend to their 3rd position which is called >3 using Airbus logic. Simples?
Many crews get confused trying to interpret what they see on the Flaps / Slats display compared with the QRH table. I think it's the most confusing aspect of that table's interpretation. A diagram of the the Slats with the "confusing" named positions, printed on the QRH page would certainly help.
I think you've forgotten Airbus "logic" of naming the slats position.
The slats position corresponds to the handle position - (not to their actual position). When you have the handle in pos 2, the Slats run to pos 2 - but they don't extend any more at handle position 3.
With Flaps Full, the slats extend to their 3rd position which is called >3 using Airbus logic. Simples?
Many crews get confused trying to interpret what they see on the Flaps / Slats display compared with the QRH table. I think it's the most confusing aspect of that table's interpretation. A diagram of the the Slats with the "confusing" named positions, printed on the QRH page would certainly help.
Great, that explains it - thanks Rudderrat. But the Vfe displayed on the PFD is based on flap lever position, so won't you be flying around in the barbers pole? Do you just ignore this?
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Hi kellykelpie,
Never ignore the overspeed warning - it's probably telling the truth. That's another reason for having to use selected speeds on the GA.
Do you just ignore this?
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But the Vfe displayed on the PFD is based on flap lever position, so won't you be flying around in the barbers pole? Do you just ignore this?
Your answer:
QRH 27.01A
Note: ‐ In some cases, MAX SPEED - 10 kt may be a few knots higher than the VFE. In this situation, pilot may follow the VFE.
You "may" means you may also fly in the red area (flap lever position dependent) as long as you fly below Vmax but the overspeed audio warning is valid (iaw actual config FCTM AO-027 P1/2) and should not be ignored...
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Well, there is actual a recommendation, PRO-ABN-10 P 12/22 and also in the QRH:
-Approach with selected speed is recommended.
-Approach with selected speed is recommended.
destructors belavered that it should be compulsory. They also
expected it on the Skills Test.
And its SOP in my mob too.
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The problem of the flaps and/or slats locked is landing distance.
Hence the approach at selected speed.
It is like the overweight landing procedure, where you select VLS for landing, instead of managing speed, to minimize landing distance. That seems unnecessary in long runways and/or slight overweights, but it is very important in high weight not-so-long runways. Don't forget that speed goes squared in the kinetic energy formula.
Selected speed for approach in flaps or slats locked will be VLS. If its indication is available your VAPP plus delta VREF is precisely equal the displayed VLS.
As a matter of fact, unless you lose speeds indications, all you have to do is to PULL SPEED, then select VFE next - 5 kt and when there, select next config and repeat until you have CONF 3, and then select VLS. All of that without looking at any paper or ECAM.
In the meantime PNF can do the ECAM (just one or two things) check landing distance if it is not a clearly long enough runway and you think about both options:
landing: mind tail strike possibility
go around:
1. don't change config upon pulling out, keep VAPP (VLS)
2. check your real VFE. This minus 10 kt will be your acceleration speed, or displayed VFE if less than that.
3. you will only retract surfaces in case of diversion, but never with only flaps down.
take a look at the QRH in case you miss something, then relax and make a good landing
I had flaps locked between 1 and 2, once, during a visual approach at night and the captain just flew it like I said, except no QRH, no go around preparation. He landed nicely.
Hence the approach at selected speed.
It is like the overweight landing procedure, where you select VLS for landing, instead of managing speed, to minimize landing distance. That seems unnecessary in long runways and/or slight overweights, but it is very important in high weight not-so-long runways. Don't forget that speed goes squared in the kinetic energy formula.
Selected speed for approach in flaps or slats locked will be VLS. If its indication is available your VAPP plus delta VREF is precisely equal the displayed VLS.
As a matter of fact, unless you lose speeds indications, all you have to do is to PULL SPEED, then select VFE next - 5 kt and when there, select next config and repeat until you have CONF 3, and then select VLS. All of that without looking at any paper or ECAM.
In the meantime PNF can do the ECAM (just one or two things) check landing distance if it is not a clearly long enough runway and you think about both options:
landing: mind tail strike possibility
go around:
1. don't change config upon pulling out, keep VAPP (VLS)
2. check your real VFE. This minus 10 kt will be your acceleration speed, or displayed VFE if less than that.
3. you will only retract surfaces in case of diversion, but never with only flaps down.
take a look at the QRH in case you miss something, then relax and make a good landing
I had flaps locked between 1 and 2, once, during a visual approach at night and the captain just flew it like I said, except no QRH, no go around preparation. He landed nicely.
Thanks Microburst - good info.
Did a search of Airbus Docs and could find nothing about "Must" use selected speed for landing. Obviously it needs to be used for configuring though.
Nice angle on the risk of overrun if using managed speed however there is no mention if this in the FCTM risks table. I would be more worried about lack of energy than overruns given the runways that we go to.
Did a search of Airbus Docs and could find nothing about "Must" use selected speed for landing. Obviously it needs to be used for configuring though.
Nice angle on the risk of overrun if using managed speed however there is no mention if this in the FCTM risks table. I would be more worried about lack of energy than overruns given the runways that we go to.
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kellykelpie
Suggest you treat MB2002's post with caution...
In most cases LDR will be less than 2,000m ...
... however controllability in an abnormal config may be an issue, so please perform ECAM, then the QRH procedure as a crew, calculate the VAPP correctly, including approach correction if applicable, and fly that speed on the approach... (but not below VLS).
Remember that the QRH is not there as a backup for Supermen, however "nice" their landings may be. Do it the professional way...
Suggest you treat MB2002's post with caution...
The problem of the flaps and/or slats locked is landing distance.
As a matter of fact, unless you lose speeds indications, all you have to do is to PULL SPEED, then select VFE next - 5 kt and when there, select next config and repeat until you have CONF 3, and then select VLS. All of that without looking at any paper or ECAM.
take a look at the QRH in case you miss something
I had flaps locked between 1 and 2, once, during a visual approach at night and the captain just flew it like I said, except no QRH, no go around preparation. He landed nicely.
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Yes, that was not good, but in "my method" We do both ECAM and paper procedure, only we don't go around prematurely if fuel is a factor.
As I look at it, you can configure to CONF 3, in the meantime calculate VAPP, which is FMGC VAPP + ECAM's delta VREF (it should be exactly PFD's VLS), then select that speed, then go throuh the procedure for Go around possibility.
If you go below 1,000 ft without having done all this, then go around. If you have, don't forget landing clearance, landing checklist, then land. All safe and according to procedures.
As I look at it, you can configure to CONF 3, in the meantime calculate VAPP, which is FMGC VAPP + ECAM's delta VREF (it should be exactly PFD's VLS), then select that speed, then go throuh the procedure for Go around possibility.
If you go below 1,000 ft without having done all this, then go around. If you have, don't forget landing clearance, landing checklist, then land. All safe and according to procedures.
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Also, the later you have it (the flaps lock) the milder the problem while the earlier you have it, the more time you have to do everything before 1,000 ft.
Fuel consumption is greatly increased when having some surfaces out. Going around, holding and shooting the approach can be a bad idea, depending on the situation, or a luxury if you have made a good tankering.
Fuel consumption is greatly increased when having some surfaces out. Going around, holding and shooting the approach can be a bad idea, depending on the situation, or a luxury if you have made a good tankering.
