Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

climb 5000' and climb maintain 5000'

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

climb 5000' and climb maintain 5000'

Old 14th Mar 2012, 01:09
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 99
climb 5000' and climb maintain 5000'

Hi gooday to you ,
Does any body knows what is difference between"climb 5000'" and "climb maintain 5000'", by ATC. thanks.:
kuobin is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2012, 01:17
  #2 (permalink)  
Water Wings
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Same thing just said slightly differently.
 
Old 14th Mar 2012, 02:31
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Katmandu
Age: 32
Posts: 2
Once on a flight down under, I requested a climb from FL290 to Fl350...I had this clearance " maintain FL350 ". We asked for a recomfirmation that we were cleared to climb from FL290 to FL350, we had an agiatated " maintain FL 350 ". Skipper asked that we were currently at FL 290, are we to maintain that? Came another curt reply, " you are cleared to maintain FL350 ". Well, we reported " vacating FL290 for FL350 ", " roger " was what we got in reply. GO figure.................
Chomo Longma is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2012, 08:01
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Betwixt and between
Posts: 666
I read it to mean, expect to level off, don't call me on reaching, wait for a further clearance.
Sciolistes is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2012, 00:02
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: LHR
Posts: 187
Could be used during an SID with altitude constraints - in which case it is a climb now and maintain 5000 (do not climb further with the SID until further instructed)
HPbleed is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2012, 01:46
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 120
It is basically the same thing...

"Climb to 5000" means if you reach 5000 you are expected to level off there but if it is an intermediate level you COULD receive higher/lower by the time you reach it.

"Climb and Maintain 5000" means you go to 5000 and can expect to be at that level until further consideration.
Willoz269 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2012, 13:24
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: A place in the sun
Age: 79
Posts: 909
I do wish we all could standardise our terminology. Sometimes it is only an irritant but sometimes it is a real safety issue. It behoves us all to examine the detail and try to get it right.
Bergerie1 is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2012, 13:56
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 76
Posts: 8,275
Best way is "Climb TO altitude 5000 feet".
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2012, 15:04
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: LHR
Posts: 187
I thought we were not supposed to use to and for? As they sound exactly the same as two and four?
HPbleed is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2012, 20:48
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 56
"Climb to altitude 5,000 feet" is CAP 413

"Climb to 5000" is definitely not and for reasons already mentioned could be confused.

The instruction "Climb" according to CAP413 is defined to mean "Climb and maintain".

Reading between the lines (probably wrongly) I often interpret "Climb and maintain" to mean the controller knows we want higher but can't give it to us yet.


I often wonder why some controllers use "route direct xxxxxx" and some use "resume own navigation xxxxxx" if you've been on one of their headings. I am half tempted to resume my own navigation to xxxxxx via my destination airfield
corporate-pilot is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2012, 23:42
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Own nav means (and forgive me for being less than verbatim as I have imbibed some Guinness) rejoin your flight plan at the next available waypoint.

Direct to means...well, it's obvious init?!

Now, "resume own nav direct to" doesn't really do it for me as its nonsensical.
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2012, 00:19
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in a TCU
Posts: 559
What's the point with using "altitude", has anyone ever climbed to an heading or what ?

About resuming navigation, by the book we should provide your position too but it's not usualy done becase you would be laughing all the way down to your destination
blissbak is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2012, 06:49
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
Posts: 4,939
I often wonder why some controllers use "route direct xxxxxx" and some use "resume own navigation xxxxxx" if you've been on one of their headings.
"Fly Direct to ..." = you have been under radar headings, in which I am responsible for your terrain clearance, I have now given you an instruction under radar guidance, and have checked your terrain clearance to that point.

"Resume own Navigation to ..." = you may track direct to the point (from a traffic & airspace perspective), but your terrain separation and navigation is now your own responsibility.

What's the point with using "altitude", has anyone ever climbed to an [sic] heading or what ?
Really? It's because some people climb/descend to a flight level.
Checkboard is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2012, 08:18
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: slightly right of the MCP
Posts: 110
But if ATC already, cleard you to say x000 ft, goes without saying it is an altitude, as opposed to when cleard say climb maintain 250, in this case its a no brainer you've been cleard to a flight level.
In my opinion not necessary to include the word ' altitude', Just lengthens the clearance.
odericko2000 is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2012, 08:25
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
Posts: 4,939
The term "altitude" places a marker between "to" and the altitude assigned.

"Tiger 66, descend two four zero zero [2,400 ft]. Cleared for NDB approach runway three three." The captain of Tiger 66, who heard "descend to four zero zero" replied with, "Okay, four zero zero"
Flying Tiger Line Flight 66 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Checkboard is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2012, 08:25
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 3,670
In my opinion not necessary to include the word ' altitude', Just lengthens the clearance.
I would counter that statement.

In aviation, safety is paramount, and hence clear, unambiguous r/t is essential.

The problem with removing altitude and just leaving ft at the end of the transmission is that its susceptible to being cut-off due to whatever technicalities, and could also be easily missed by a busy crew (or false assumptions made). Hence the use of the word altitude to reinforce the point.

Or at least that's how I see it ....

(I see Checkboard got there before me, and I think he's provided an excellent example !)
mixture is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2012, 08:53
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,991
Guys, as long as you realize that CAP413 is one of the many variants on standard ICAO RT...

Some things make sense in CAP 413, like 'altitude' and 'degrees'.
Other stuff is a bit weird, like the whole mantra the approach controller has to preach when everyone else in the world says 'cleared ILS'.
Other things are confusing and bordering on the unsafe, like no double emphasis on the word 'behind' as in 'Behind the landing 737 line up and wait behind' or the 'climb now' instruction.
PENKO is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2012, 12:04
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 56
you have been under radar headings, in which I am responsible for your terrain clearance
mmmm are you sure? I've always believed the crew are responsible for terrain clearance - always.
corporate-pilot is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2012, 12:09
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: slightly right of the MCP
Posts: 110
@Mixture,
Whilst i agree with you that safety is paramount and there should be no ambiguity in clearances issued by ATC, i do not see any if you were cleard
"climb five tousand ft", and the word ft is cut out during the transmition as you would have it, you would still know you are climbing to an altitude since you dont climb to levels in tousands,
And better still if in doubt just ask for the clearance again, why would you want to act on a clearance you arent sure about.

@Checkboard
Point taken on the use of altitude between the word "to" and say "5,000",
but remember at the beginning of the thread poster asked difference between "climb 5,000" and ''climb maintain 5,000'', there was no to in between.
For ATC who are verbose and would like to make clearances like "climb to", then the word altitude would suffice.
I know you have quoted the clearnce for tiger 66, but the ATC would have just said descend two tousand fower hundred feet, in this case no need for use of the word altitude, granted clearance was two four zero zero feet, but even as pilots clearances have to be sensible, thats why you check again if in doubt, when last were you asked by ATC to descend 400ft?
odericko2000 is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2012, 12:18
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Ex-pat Aussie in the UK
Posts: 4,939
corporate-pilot An IFR flight in the EU may descend below the en-route lowest safe altitude when:
  1. within 25 miles, and descending to a published MSA
  2. Operating under the VFR
  3. conducting an Instrument approach
  4. under Radar vectors, and above the minimum vectoring altitude
  5. established in a published holding procedure, and above the minimum altitude for holding.
... I mean, when you get a vector from ATC, you don't say "Hang on a minute, while I plot that on a terrain chart and make sure I have terrain separation.", do you? Not saying you shouldn't remain situationally aware (esp in the second and third worlds!)

and, in addition:

Originally Posted by ICAO. PANS-ATM 8.6.5.2
When vectoring an IFR flight and when giving an IFR flight a direct routing which takes an aircraft off an ATS route, the controller shall issue clearances such that the prescribed obstacle clearance will exist at all times until the aircraft reaches the point where the pilot will resume own navigation.
(emphasis mine)
Checkboard is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.