AF447 final crew conversation - Thread No. 1
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"BEagle, yep, with you there, although for me, percentage wise it wasn't much (still illegal though) & the bigger bollox was the missing spacer, which I tend to favour for the tyre failure over the "home-made" DC10 part, & shutting down an engine from P3 position without much , if any, in the way of consultation with the Commander."
Your point of view is not supported by the inquiry.
Your point of view is not supported by the inquiry.
the aircraft weight at which the takeoff was commenced was 185,880 kg, for a MTOW of 185,070 kg. The investigation confirmed these figures and showed that this excess weight had no significant effect on the takeoff and acceleration distances
Overall, the balance of forces at the centre of the bogie would result in self-aligning moment and two loads whose resultant is increased drag, that is to say a tendency to make the aircraft yaw to the left. The level of this drag would be at most around 1000 daN, very low in relation to the thrust of the engines. The influence of possible sideslip on the trajectory is thus very low or negligible.
At 14 h 43 min 24.8 s, the FE said, “shut down engine 2”. In the same second, the Captain called for the engine fire procedure.
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So, as I said then ? the overweight wasn't a big problem/percentage, even though it WAS illegal. . . . although the misalignment may not have been a problem with regards to trajectory, what effect on the hard working tyre ?
And, as you have said ,The FE said "shut down Eng2" at same time Capt called Fire procedure,
It is traditional in most companies for the Capt to call the shots (in consultation with other crew members), in this instance I believe he had been usurped & may (in the stress of what was going on around him, having to try, & fail , to keep the aircraft on the runway. . . it did take out some lights if I remember) just have agreed to the fait accompli of the FE shutting it down, by following it up with a rushed request for fire drill . . . in any case it was piss-poor CRM & far too precipitious/rushed,considering they hadn't even rotated for chrissakes.
And, as you have said ,The FE said "shut down Eng2" at same time Capt called Fire procedure,
It is traditional in most companies for the Capt to call the shots (in consultation with other crew members), in this instance I believe he had been usurped & may (in the stress of what was going on around him, having to try, & fail , to keep the aircraft on the runway. . . it did take out some lights if I remember) just have agreed to the fait accompli of the FE shutting it down, by following it up with a rushed request for fire drill . . . in any case it was piss-poor CRM & far too precipitious/rushed,considering they hadn't even rotated for chrissakes.
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SLF, you appear to be still confused.
When the flight started, the Commander was in LHS as is usual, and the lesser experienced of the two FOs, Bonin, was in the RHS.
At 0200 the other (more experienced) FO, Robert, returned from his rest and took LHS seat in place of the Commander. The Commander appointed Bonin as Pilot in Command, notwithstanding his lesser experience, and Bonin continued as PF still in the RHS. The Commander left the cockpit and went for his rest.
When the Commander returned, he took neither LHS (his usual seat) nor RHS, but left both FOs where they already were. He was presumably in a jump seat, behind them, and not at the controls. Bonin, RHS, continued as PF. Robert was still PM. The Commander was calling from behind them.
If you want more, please read the threads first, like most of us have, instead of jumping to incorrect conclusions.
When the flight started, the Commander was in LHS as is usual, and the lesser experienced of the two FOs, Bonin, was in the RHS.
At 0200 the other (more experienced) FO, Robert, returned from his rest and took LHS seat in place of the Commander. The Commander appointed Bonin as Pilot in Command, notwithstanding his lesser experience, and Bonin continued as PF still in the RHS. The Commander left the cockpit and went for his rest.
When the Commander returned, he took neither LHS (his usual seat) nor RHS, but left both FOs where they already were. He was presumably in a jump seat, behind them, and not at the controls. Bonin, RHS, continued as PF. Robert was still PM. The Commander was calling from behind them.
If you want more, please read the threads first, like most of us have, instead of jumping to incorrect conclusions.
WilyB, do you understand the difference between structural MTOM and regulated TOM?
captainplaystation - agreed. Very poor flight deck discipline and abysmal CRM....
When I used to instruct on 4-jets, the golden rule was "NEVER shut down an engine which is still producing thrust until you are 100% certain that you no longer need that thrust!"
Returning to AF447, we see very similar flaws in AF flight deck discipline and CRM...
captainplaystation - agreed. Very poor flight deck discipline and abysmal CRM....
When I used to instruct on 4-jets, the golden rule was "NEVER shut down an engine which is still producing thrust until you are 100% certain that you no longer need that thrust!"
Returning to AF447, we see very similar flaws in AF flight deck discipline and CRM...
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There are some airlines... well, one... and a rather large one at that, where it would have been impossible for the captain to return to the flight deck in the situation the AF447 found themselves, because, impossible as it might seem, the captain's crew rest bunk is even further away from the cockpit than the length of the aircraft!!!
And yes, on some flights, like Air France, this airline operates with one captain and two FOs.
And yes, on some flights, like Air France, this airline operates with one captain and two FOs.
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Andu:
I'll let the cat out of the bag:
It's above the cabin ceiling at the aft end of coach.
There are some airlines... well, one... and a rather large one at that, where it would have been impossible for the captain to return to the flight deck in the situation the AF447 found themselves, because, impossible as it might seem, the captain's crew rest bunk is even further away from the cockpit than the length of the aircraft!!!
It's above the cabin ceiling at the aft end of coach.
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Cockpit seat allocations
Following quote was posted by Jumbofan on Dec 04 2011 on the french forum Parole de Gaulois concerning the way the 447 flt crew should have been seated :
Translation:
The Capt seated on the LHS is PF in that seat but not allowed to pilot from the RHS unless he is in possession of an additional license to that effect.
F/O with ATPL in the RHS – is allowed to operate as PF from that seat only.
F/O with frozen ATPL – can only be PNF in the RHS with the Capt in LHS, and PNF in the LHS with the F/O with ATPL in the RHS.
In other terms when the Capt left his seat to go and rest, Bonin actually in the RHS since departure should have taken place in the LHS whilst Robert coming back from his rest should have sat in the RHS and therefore be the PF.
Therefore, the crew allocated seats was totally wrong on that flight.
Parole de Gaulois • Consulter le sujet - Accident du vol Air France 447 Rio Paris ... et les autres !
CDB assis en place gauche – est PF de cette place mais n'est pas autorisé ŕ piloter de la place droite s'il n'a pas un complément de licence ŕ cet effet
Copi. avec ATPL en place droite – est autorisé PF de cette place uniquement
Copi. sans ATPL – ne peut ętre que PNF en place droite avec le CDB ŕ gauche, et PNF en place gauche avec le Copi. ayant l'ATPL en PF ŕ la place droite.
Autrement dit lorsque le CDB s'est levé pour aller se reposer, ce Copi. qui était alors en place droite aurait dű se lever et s'asseoir ŕ gauche pendant que le Copi. qui venait de se reposer s'installait ŕ droite en tant que PF.
En d'autres termes, répartition des rôles dans ce cockpit totalement erroné sur ce vol.
Copi. avec ATPL en place droite – est autorisé PF de cette place uniquement
Copi. sans ATPL – ne peut ętre que PNF en place droite avec le CDB ŕ gauche, et PNF en place gauche avec le Copi. ayant l'ATPL en PF ŕ la place droite.
Autrement dit lorsque le CDB s'est levé pour aller se reposer, ce Copi. qui était alors en place droite aurait dű se lever et s'asseoir ŕ gauche pendant que le Copi. qui venait de se reposer s'installait ŕ droite en tant que PF.
En d'autres termes, répartition des rôles dans ce cockpit totalement erroné sur ce vol.
The Capt seated on the LHS is PF in that seat but not allowed to pilot from the RHS unless he is in possession of an additional license to that effect.
F/O with ATPL in the RHS – is allowed to operate as PF from that seat only.
F/O with frozen ATPL – can only be PNF in the RHS with the Capt in LHS, and PNF in the LHS with the F/O with ATPL in the RHS.
In other terms when the Capt left his seat to go and rest, Bonin actually in the RHS since departure should have taken place in the LHS whilst Robert coming back from his rest should have sat in the RHS and therefore be the PF.
Therefore, the crew allocated seats was totally wrong on that flight.
Parole de Gaulois • Consulter le sujet - Accident du vol Air France 447 Rio Paris ... et les autres !
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Therefore, the crew allocated seats was totally wrong on that flight.
I'd say, look it up.
Last edited by golfyankeesierra; 21st Dec 2011 at 04:20.
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There are times when you fly an airplane with conventional yokes left- and right-handed depending on your seat, so I doubt it. If a F/O is making a takeoff, his right hand is on the yoke and the left guarding the power levers even if the captain sets power. Vice-versa for the left seat. At least that's the way it works on the business jets I've flown.
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Do AB pilots need separate certifications for flying left and right handed? Just being curious.
There are times when you fly an airplane with conventional yokes left- and right-handed depending on your seat, so I doubt it. If a F/O is making a takeoff, his right hand is on the yoke and the left guarding the power levers even if the captain sets power. Vice-versa for the left seat. At least that's the way it works on the business jets I've flown.
The problem is related with the Bonin certifications
They are different in BEA reports 2 and 3
Wait for what BEA will put (about Bonin certifications) in the final report .....
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The captain coming into the cockpit would have been most affective taking his LHS. He didn't so he left the flying to his FO's. He might have missed the FO having full back stick by doing that. He might have thought nobody could be that stupid so thought he could manage the cockpit from behind. He was wrong. He was that stupid.
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He is the Captain and the safe custody of the flight is in his hands. When he re-entered the cockpit he should have shown his authority when he seen things were being so poorly managed.By the so called pilots sitting in 0A&0B.
As PIC and Captain of the aircraft he has a duty of care to all personnel within his charge. If that means telling Bonin or Robert to get out of that******* seat now!!! then so be it. Ultimately he did nothing.....
Over 2 minutes and 30 seconds in the cockpit and all he did was watch it all happen with no input to improve the situation.
Its a damning indictment of Air France Cockpit Management Procedures and Policy.
As PIC and Captain of the aircraft he has a duty of care to all personnel within his charge. If that means telling Bonin or Robert to get out of that******* seat now!!! then so be it. Ultimately he did nothing.....
Over 2 minutes and 30 seconds in the cockpit and all he did was watch it all happen with no input to improve the situation.
Its a damning indictment of Air France Cockpit Management Procedures and Policy.
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I have to agree that the skipper was confused, but did not take the initiative in figuring out the situation.
As has been said so many times, the info (re stall) was obvious.
All 3 pilots will get the blame.
AF is in sh1t.
As has been said so many times, the info (re stall) was obvious.
All 3 pilots will get the blame.
AF is in sh1t.
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As has been said so many times, the info (re stall) was obvious
But what whas realy in front of stupid PF's eyes (PFD) ?
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But what whas realy in front of stupid PF's eyes (PFD) ?
However, PNF seems to have been more aware than PF.
What gets me (re the stall) is that they did not respond to the basics, that being the altimeter unwinding at such a rate.
Yes, it's easy to speculate from one's armchair. However, after two and a half years, certain things are obvious.
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Do AB pilots need separate certifications for flying left and right handed? Just being curious.
Additional qualifications are required for a Cpt to fly from the right seat (instructors) and for F/Os to fly from the left seat (during captain's rest on long haul flights).
In the AF 447, case the PF was the F/O seating in the right seat.
If the returning captain had wanted to take over controls, he obviously would have done it from the left seat.
Therefore, the crew allocated seats was totally wrong on that flight.
1) PF did hold a valid ATPL since aug 3rd 2007 (see BEA interim report #3 page 15).
2) "The composition of the crew was in accordance with the operator’s procedures" (see BEA interim report #3 page 77).
Do you seriously beleive "operators procedures" could be grossly illegal ?
Do you seriously beleive BEA would hide the fact that the PF did not hold all required qualifications to act as "relief captain" on this leg ?
Last edited by GerardC; 26th Dec 2011 at 16:12.
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Originally Posted by MikeX
What gets me (re the stall) is that they did not respond to the basics, that being the altimeter unwinding at such a rate.
We will never know what the right seat PF saw because his instruments were not recorded; we can only speculate and doing so makes us appear judgmental.
We "think" we know what the left seat PNF saw and what he saw convinced him to switch attitude and air data inputs to the PF's instruments.
Dead men tell no tales, but I'd like to ask the PNF why he believed the PF's instruments were wrong, but never took the controls. For some reason, he choose to die rather than push and hold the little red button. IOW, the automation/tape gauge induced confusion was complete. GOD rest their souls.
Yes, I prefer round dials.