AF 447 Search to resume (part2)
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Hi,
For some this will be relief and for some other will be grief indeed ...
I deeply regret this decision. What, other than grief, might it produce?
Lors du point de presse tenu le jeudi 12 mai, le Procureur Adjoint du Tribunal de Grande Instance de Paris et les responsables de l'Institut de Recherche Criminelle de la Gendarmerie Nationale (IRCGN) et de la Gendarmerie des Transports Aériens (GTA) avaient annoncé qu'il devait être possible de savoir dès cette semaine si les prélèvements effectués sur les deux corps relevés permettaient d'indiquer si une procédure d'identification par ADN est envisageable. Le laboratoire auquel avait été confiée l'analyse des prélèvements vient de faire connaître ses conclusions. L'extraction d'ADN aux fins d'obtention d'un profil a pu être réalisée, ce qui confirme qu'une identification est possible.
During the press briefing Thursday, May 12, the Deputy Prosecutor of the Tribunal de Grande Instance in Paris and heads the Institute of Criminal Research of the National Gendarmerie (IRCGN) and the Gendarmerie Air Transport (GTA) announced it should be possible to know this week if the samples from the two bodies identified to indicate whether a procedure for DNA identification is possible. The laboratory which had been entrusted with the analysis of samples has just announced its findings. The extraction of DNA for obtaining a profile was achieved, confirming that identification is possible.
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jcjeant, where was a decision announced to recover all the possible bodies?
Crash du vol AF 447 Rio Paris: l'identification des corps est possible - Société - Nouvelobs.com
I thought the two judges in Paris had suspended further recoveries beyond those two.
PARIS (AP) — L'identification des deux corps retrouvés dans les débris du vol AF 447 Rio-Paris dans l'Océan Atlantique début mai est possible, a annoncé mercredi la gendarmerie dans un communiqué.
"L'extraction d'ADN aux fins d'obtention d'un profil a pu être réalisée, ce qui confirme qu'une identification est possible", a précisé le Service d'information et de relations publiques des armées-gendarmerie (SIRPA).
Des experts de la gendarmerie nationale, tous spécialistes en médecine légale embarqués à bord du navire Ile-de-Sein vont par ailleurs procéder, lorsque le bateau arrivera sur la zone de l'accident, au "relevage" des dépouilles qui peuvent l'être "avec le souci de la plus grande dignité" selon le communiqué.
Au lendemain de la découverte des deux corps le 10 mai par 4.000 mètres de fond, les deux juges parisiens, Sylvie Zimmermann et Yann Daurelle, avaient écrit une lettre aux familles pour leur indiquer que les corps des victimes du vol Rio-Paris trop dégradés ne seraient pas remontés à la surface pour préserver leur dignité.
"L'extraction d'ADN aux fins d'obtention d'un profil a pu être réalisée, ce qui confirme qu'une identification est possible", a précisé le Service d'information et de relations publiques des armées-gendarmerie (SIRPA).
Des experts de la gendarmerie nationale, tous spécialistes en médecine légale embarqués à bord du navire Ile-de-Sein vont par ailleurs procéder, lorsque le bateau arrivera sur la zone de l'accident, au "relevage" des dépouilles qui peuvent l'être "avec le souci de la plus grande dignité" selon le communiqué.
Au lendemain de la découverte des deux corps le 10 mai par 4.000 mètres de fond, les deux juges parisiens, Sylvie Zimmermann et Yann Daurelle, avaient écrit une lettre aux familles pour leur indiquer que les corps des victimes du vol Rio-Paris trop dégradés ne seraient pas remontés à la surface pour préserver leur dignité.
I thought the two judges in Paris had suspended further recoveries beyond those two.
takata --
I too must ask you the question: Where does that information come from? I have seen nothing to indicate that fact has been established.
Come-on, both pilots were fully strapped in their seats.
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Important (major) factor ("single")?
Takata,
Unless clear and important facts recorded in the CVR channels allowed an analysis that explained why they entered the "complex" scenario (UAS and so on).
Always comes to my mind that after the Selcal tested ok, just 3 seconds later the crew no longer replied 4 callsfrom ACC-AO.
Reminder:
01:35:43 “ AFR 447 -AIR FRANCE FOUR FOUR SEVEN, thank you.
01:35:46 “ ACC-AO -Welcome, maintaing flight level three five zero,
say your estimate TASIL?
01:35:53 “ ACC-AO -Say your estimate TASIL?
01:35:59 “ ACC-AO -AIR FRANCE FOUR FOUR SEVEN estimate TASIL?
01:36:14 “ ACC-AO -AIR FRANCE FOUR FOUR SEVEN say your estimate
TASIL?
Source: BEA #1 report
I took into account also the fact:
At 2 h 01, the crew tried, without success for the third time, to connect to
the Dakar ATC ADS-C system. And the flight was not transferred between the Brazilian and ACC DAKAR.
Do you really think that any people in governmental circles (possible "source" of those leaks) are really that skilled in aeronautics in order to fully understand what the BEA is really working at without being provided with a full and detailed report?
Always comes to my mind that after the Selcal tested ok, just 3 seconds later the crew no longer replied 4 callsfrom ACC-AO.
Reminder:
01:35:43 “ AFR 447 -AIR FRANCE FOUR FOUR SEVEN, thank you.
01:35:46 “ ACC-AO -Welcome, maintaing flight level three five zero,
say your estimate TASIL?
01:35:53 “ ACC-AO -Say your estimate TASIL?
01:35:59 “ ACC-AO -AIR FRANCE FOUR FOUR SEVEN estimate TASIL?
01:36:14 “ ACC-AO -AIR FRANCE FOUR FOUR SEVEN say your estimate
TASIL?
Source: BEA #1 report
I took into account also the fact:
At 2 h 01, the crew tried, without success for the third time, to connect to
the Dakar ATC ADS-C system. And the flight was not transferred between the Brazilian and ACC DAKAR.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 19th May 2011 at 14:00.
Considering that some 6 weeks ago there was a general pessimism that the debris would never be found, then when the debris was found pessimism that the recorders would never be found, then when the recorders were found gloom that they would be unreadable. So now, after a remarkable turn-around can't someone just say what a great effort by all involved in getting to this stage ?
If it turns out that in addition to the acars reported failures the laser ring gyros also gave up independently (rather than some data combining algorithm surrendering owing to loss of air data), then I shall eat my wife's cooking.
If it turns out that in addition to the acars reported failures the laser ring gyros also gave up independently (rather than some data combining algorithm surrendering owing to loss of air data), then I shall eat my wife's cooking.
Yessir, a great effort and admirable tenacity, in the face of escalating costs and many hours of finding nothing.
A few pages back I confessed to being a doubting Thomas, and tipping a cap to those who pressed on and finally found 447.
Glad they did.
In re your wife's cooking ... is there something you'd like to share with us?
A few pages back I confessed to being a doubting Thomas, and tipping a cap to those who pressed on and finally found 447.
Glad they did.
In re your wife's cooking ... is there something you'd like to share with us?
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Mr O, LW50,
I'm fully with you on that one !
These BEA guys and the experts involved have done a hell of a job to locate and recover the essential items of the wreckage.
It's easy now for all our armchairs experts to say that they should have found the wreckage on day 1 just after the A/C has disappeared :
- in extreme weather,
- in the middle of an ocean,
- in 3000-4000 meters of water !!!!
BEA made choices that were reasonable at that time and resources involved have included the French, the Brazilian and even the US NAVY if I do remember (meaning the US Govt was part of the conspiracy not to recover the boxes
).
Being failed by the pingers (and that need to be investigated), they made elaborate guesses and assumptions to go on. When they failed to find the wreckage during the pingers' life, they gathered a bunch of international experts (Russian, American, etc.), reviewed all available data and finally DID THE JOB.
So please let's stop all the bulls..t regarding the BEA being only a governemental agency full of incompetent bureaucrats with an hidden agenda ! (of course, that last one is not for you M. O and LW 50).
These BEA guys and the experts involved have done a hell of a job to locate and recover the essential items of the wreckage.
It's easy now for all our armchairs experts to say that they should have found the wreckage on day 1 just after the A/C has disappeared :
- in extreme weather,
- in the middle of an ocean,
- in 3000-4000 meters of water !!!!
BEA made choices that were reasonable at that time and resources involved have included the French, the Brazilian and even the US NAVY if I do remember (meaning the US Govt was part of the conspiracy not to recover the boxes
). Being failed by the pingers (and that need to be investigated), they made elaborate guesses and assumptions to go on. When they failed to find the wreckage during the pingers' life, they gathered a bunch of international experts (Russian, American, etc.), reviewed all available data and finally DID THE JOB.
So please let's stop all the bulls..t regarding the BEA being only a governemental agency full of incompetent bureaucrats with an hidden agenda ! (of course, that last one is not for you M. O and LW 50).
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Mr Optimistic
Well put Sir!
The trouble with the species, is that once stage one of a battle has been achieved, the whole drama involved in the achievement is consigned to the waste bin of history, and miraculously the species heads fearlessly into the next cauldron of tension, terror and "what ifs?"
Advance .. Sir Lancelot.
Considering that some 6 weeks ago there was a general pessimism that the debris would never be found, then when the debris was found pessimism that the recorders would never be found, then when the recorders were found gloom that they would be unreadable. So now, after a remarkable turn-around can't someone just say what a great effort by all involved in getting to this stage ?
The trouble with the species, is that once stage one of a battle has been achieved, the whole drama involved in the achievement is consigned to the waste bin of history, and miraculously the species heads fearlessly into the next cauldron of tension, terror and "what ifs?"
Advance .. Sir Lancelot.
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Ile de Sein has left Dakar
The "Ile de Sein" latest recorded position on 18MAY 0223z is 14.26158 / -17.737961 on course 230°
Looks like she is going back to the site after crew relief. Left Dakar at about 2215z
Carte en temps réel des navires - AIS - trafic maritime et positions 2:23:38 AM
Looks like she is going back to the site after crew relief. Left Dakar at about 2215z
Carte en temps réel des navires - AIS - trafic maritime et positions 2:23:38 AM
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Turbine D I am not sure how long it would take to pump the quantity of fuel to the center tank from the trim tank to equal a 24-26% CG. Tubby gave an estimate of the amount of fuel in the trim tank in his post #1253. However, that said, it could be pumped back to the trim tank after the perceived turbulent episode was over to regain the desired efficiency. Perhaps one or more of the A-300 pilots could comment on the pros and cons of this idea.
.......There are no procedures established to move the CG forward to "guard against stall" - in fact, no airplane which would require such an intervention should be flying as a commercial transport.......
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/39510...ml#post6400653
not shure, but it look as if needs a longer time to pump all the fuel of the trim tank forward 15-20 min
the volume of the trim tank is 6230 l (4890 kg)
Last edited by grity; 18th May 2011 at 21:32.
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Hi to all in PPRUNE.
It took me almost 5 weeks to catch up with all the posts in the AF447 thread, witch I found after seeking the internet for some valuable and trustworthy forum on the AF447, ever since the ´black boxes´ were found.And I do have a personal reasons to be here, and speak up. I had a relative no board. My 47yo aunt, SONIA, was on her way to Paris to meet her french boyfriend. Never made it to her french date. Her body was never recovered, so we suspect she must be underwater strapped to her seat. And it would be a relief to get a confirmation on that. I shall say to TAKATA em SATURNV that all information, regardless of its nature, should be posted and thoroughly discussed. So please guys, keep questioning, but most important and most of all, keep answering.Along this past 5 weeks I learned a great deal of technical information, in several fields of expertise, which I never suspected existed. And let me say that I carry this information to my family and other families regarding the AF447 event; trust me it´s been most helpful to all of us!
I speak from RIO DE JANEIRO, am a 41yo medical doctor specialized in anesthesiology. So you can count on me on medical opinions if they occur. So... a big THANKS to you all pilots, engineers, pilots-to-be, lawyers, and etc... this forum is a bliss among the anguish developed ever since the AF447 disappeared in the cold night.We are all waiting for the right answers, not to blame anyone, its passed that, but to understand what happened, and dismiss, once and for all, our suspended griefs.
PS: Even though my aunt perished, I´m relieved because my mother, who is terrified of flying, but has in fact flown worldwide, was scheduled to scort my aunt to Paris, but, due to her total lack of personal organization forgot to check her passport, which had expired in APR 2009. And, at the time, was devastated to loose the opportunity to spend her vacations in PARIS. Lost the chance to get on board. Destiny playing its cards! Go figure.
NandoCarioca
Rio de Janeiro
Brasil
It took me almost 5 weeks to catch up with all the posts in the AF447 thread, witch I found after seeking the internet for some valuable and trustworthy forum on the AF447, ever since the ´black boxes´ were found.And I do have a personal reasons to be here, and speak up. I had a relative no board. My 47yo aunt, SONIA, was on her way to Paris to meet her french boyfriend. Never made it to her french date. Her body was never recovered, so we suspect she must be underwater strapped to her seat. And it would be a relief to get a confirmation on that. I shall say to TAKATA em SATURNV that all information, regardless of its nature, should be posted and thoroughly discussed. So please guys, keep questioning, but most important and most of all, keep answering.Along this past 5 weeks I learned a great deal of technical information, in several fields of expertise, which I never suspected existed. And let me say that I carry this information to my family and other families regarding the AF447 event; trust me it´s been most helpful to all of us!
I speak from RIO DE JANEIRO, am a 41yo medical doctor specialized in anesthesiology. So you can count on me on medical opinions if they occur. So... a big THANKS to you all pilots, engineers, pilots-to-be, lawyers, and etc... this forum is a bliss among the anguish developed ever since the AF447 disappeared in the cold night.We are all waiting for the right answers, not to blame anyone, its passed that, but to understand what happened, and dismiss, once and for all, our suspended griefs.
PS: Even though my aunt perished, I´m relieved because my mother, who is terrified of flying, but has in fact flown worldwide, was scheduled to scort my aunt to Paris, but, due to her total lack of personal organization forgot to check her passport, which had expired in APR 2009. And, at the time, was devastated to loose the opportunity to spend her vacations in PARIS. Lost the chance to get on board. Destiny playing its cards! Go figure.
NandoCarioca
Rio de Janeiro
Brasil
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Hi,
French TV network TF1 during the primetime edition 20H (local time)
Le 20 heures du 18 mai 2011 - Vidéo du journal televise : Le journal de 20h - TF1
Time in the video:
21Min 40sec
jcjeant, where was a decision announced to recover all the possible bodies?
Le 20 heures du 18 mai 2011 - Vidéo du journal televise : Le journal de 20h - TF1
Time in the video:
21Min 40sec
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jcjeant,
from tf1
Vol AF447: le BEA disculpe l'Airbus pour l'instant... - France - TF1 News
A translation:
At the press briefing on Thursday, May 12, the Deputy Prosecutor of the Tribunal de Grande Instance (the Judicial District Court) in Paris and the heads of the Institute of Criminal Research of the National Gendarmerie (IRCGN) and the Gendarmerie Air Transport (GTA) announced that they should know by this [current] week if DNA analysis could be used on the [tissue] samples from the two bodies, and [lead to] identification of these bodies. The laboratory assigned to analyze the samples has just announced its findings. The extraction of DNA for obtaining a profile was achieved, confirming that identification [of the bodies] is possible using DNA analysis.
from tf1
Lors du point de presse tenu le jeudi 12 mai, le Procureur Adjoint du Tribunal de Grande Instance de Paris et les responsables de l'Institut de Recherche Criminelle de la Gendarmerie Nationale (IRCGN) et de la Gendarmerie des Transports Aériens (GTA) avaient annoncé qu'il devait être possible de savoir dès cette semaine si les prélèvements effectués sur les deux corps relevés permettaient d'indiquer si une procédure d'identification par ADN est envisageable. Le laboratoire auquel avait été confiée l'analyse des prélèvements vient de faire connaître ses conclusions. L'extraction d'ADN aux fins d'obtention d'un profil a pu être réalisée, ce qui confirme qu'une identification est possible.
A translation:
At the press briefing on Thursday, May 12, the Deputy Prosecutor of the Tribunal de Grande Instance (the Judicial District Court) in Paris and the heads of the Institute of Criminal Research of the National Gendarmerie (IRCGN) and the Gendarmerie Air Transport (GTA) announced that they should know by this [current] week if DNA analysis could be used on the [tissue] samples from the two bodies, and [lead to] identification of these bodies. The laboratory assigned to analyze the samples has just announced its findings. The extraction of DNA for obtaining a profile was achieved, confirming that identification [of the bodies] is possible using DNA analysis.
For Lonewolf 50 & wes wall:
I can only speak to the West side of the Atlantic, but some large transport aircraft simulators now come with an IOS touch screen page labeled “Unusual Attitudes”. There are about 12 icons available to select for example: “250 knots, 60 degree bank, 45 degree nose hi”, “180 knots, 45 degree bank, 30 degrees nose lo”, and so on over a fairly full range of pitch, bank & speed.
When selected, the simulator is placed in the chosen attitude with the associated speed and then automatically frozen (flight freeze). The trainee and the instructor then have time to discuss recovery options before releasing flight freeze. Evidently, airline pilot representation organizations had a big say in using exclusively this methodology for training, as opposed to a dynamic entry. The days of 'close your eyes and give me 30 degrees of bank to the left, and now reverse it' are gone.
The obvious drawback here is that what precipitated the problem is not addressed, nor are the dynamics leading to the preset conditions from which a recovery is to be initiated. It is specifically Unusual Attitude “recovery’ oriented and not Upset & Recovery oriented. As you say, Upset avoidance is stressed.
Some simulators have two additional icons which dynamically produce either a nose hi or nose lo unusual attitude but the reason for the occurrence is left to the instructor to create, i.e. Wake, Mountain Wave, CAT, CB etc. Use your imagination. These are extra frills and cannot be incorporated in the formal pass/fail syllabus.
The obvious limitation of these types of scenarios in the A330 is that in Normal Law from the 67,30,-15 limits the aircraft recovers itself. Once again you have people questioning, how could it even get there? Why do we need this?
I have seen an IOS page that allows the simulator operator to put the Airbus in any pitch attitude or bank, but it must be put in Direct Law to get there and the simulator motion must be off. Most of the Flight package data is predicted data because the aircraft just can’t get there. No motion leaves a lot to be desired. It’s possible there’ll be more flight data available now, maybe not.
In some heavy aircraft, Flaps 1 is a recommended selection in some hi altitude stall situations, the Bus has the auto-slats, but in other than Normal Law maybe there are other options. I've instructed "approach to stalls" in both the B727 aircraft and B727 simulator as well as a few other simulators and training in this regard is far more flexible and productive in a simulator with probably a 100% carryover to the aircraft.
Accurate Stall/Upset simulation is a hot item as we speak.
All this is academic discussion in reply to questions about Upset/Unusual Attitude training, not intended to apply to AF447.
I can only speak to the West side of the Atlantic, but some large transport aircraft simulators now come with an IOS touch screen page labeled “Unusual Attitudes”. There are about 12 icons available to select for example: “250 knots, 60 degree bank, 45 degree nose hi”, “180 knots, 45 degree bank, 30 degrees nose lo”, and so on over a fairly full range of pitch, bank & speed.
When selected, the simulator is placed in the chosen attitude with the associated speed and then automatically frozen (flight freeze). The trainee and the instructor then have time to discuss recovery options before releasing flight freeze. Evidently, airline pilot representation organizations had a big say in using exclusively this methodology for training, as opposed to a dynamic entry. The days of 'close your eyes and give me 30 degrees of bank to the left, and now reverse it' are gone.
The obvious drawback here is that what precipitated the problem is not addressed, nor are the dynamics leading to the preset conditions from which a recovery is to be initiated. It is specifically Unusual Attitude “recovery’ oriented and not Upset & Recovery oriented. As you say, Upset avoidance is stressed.
Some simulators have two additional icons which dynamically produce either a nose hi or nose lo unusual attitude but the reason for the occurrence is left to the instructor to create, i.e. Wake, Mountain Wave, CAT, CB etc. Use your imagination. These are extra frills and cannot be incorporated in the formal pass/fail syllabus.
The obvious limitation of these types of scenarios in the A330 is that in Normal Law from the 67,30,-15 limits the aircraft recovers itself. Once again you have people questioning, how could it even get there? Why do we need this?
I have seen an IOS page that allows the simulator operator to put the Airbus in any pitch attitude or bank, but it must be put in Direct Law to get there and the simulator motion must be off. Most of the Flight package data is predicted data because the aircraft just can’t get there. No motion leaves a lot to be desired. It’s possible there’ll be more flight data available now, maybe not.
In some heavy aircraft, Flaps 1 is a recommended selection in some hi altitude stall situations, the Bus has the auto-slats, but in other than Normal Law maybe there are other options. I've instructed "approach to stalls" in both the B727 aircraft and B727 simulator as well as a few other simulators and training in this regard is far more flexible and productive in a simulator with probably a 100% carryover to the aircraft.
Accurate Stall/Upset simulation is a hot item as we speak.
All this is academic discussion in reply to questions about Upset/Unusual Attitude training, not intended to apply to AF447.
To answer a couple of points:
The A300-60QRH advises to move the trim tank fuel forward in the event of severe turbulence.
The normal cg target for a A330 200 is 36.8 at 230T with a linear shift to 39 at 168T
Ten to fifteen minutes sounds about right to move the fuel completely forward but I will check and repost the actual rate tomorrow.
The A300-60QRH advises to move the trim tank fuel forward in the event of severe turbulence.
The normal cg target for a A330 200 is 36.8 at 230T with a linear shift to 39 at 168T
Ten to fifteen minutes sounds about right to move the fuel completely forward but I will check and repost the actual rate tomorrow.
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Air France crash probe points to pilot error
This may have been posted before...Wall Street Journal...
Air France crash probe points to pilot error - NYPOST.com
Air France crash probe points to pilot error - NYPOST.com
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NandoCarioca,
Thank you for your post and your personal sharing. All of us who post to this site are saddened by your personal loss of your Aunt, the grief that is immense and for all the other 227 souls lost on that dreadful night. Each of us, based on our expertise and experiences have the goal you have identified, that is, to aid in the finding of the true root cause or causes to prevent such a catastrophe from occurring in the future. It is important to place the cause as the first priority and not the blame, in reverse, the cause may be masked to again be repeated in the future. And so, we go forward to analyze and debate what we may know or not know towards the goal. But in the end, everyone hopes this will never be repeated. So, keep reading as things progress and more data emerges. Your contributions will be a most welcome addition going forward.
Thank you for your post and your personal sharing. All of us who post to this site are saddened by your personal loss of your Aunt, the grief that is immense and for all the other 227 souls lost on that dreadful night. Each of us, based on our expertise and experiences have the goal you have identified, that is, to aid in the finding of the true root cause or causes to prevent such a catastrophe from occurring in the future. It is important to place the cause as the first priority and not the blame, in reverse, the cause may be masked to again be repeated in the future. And so, we go forward to analyze and debate what we may know or not know towards the goal. But in the end, everyone hopes this will never be repeated. So, keep reading as things progress and more data emerges. Your contributions will be a most welcome addition going forward.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 19th May 2011 at 13:57.