AF447 wreckage found

[aterpster]

wiggy:

Problem is the airline bean counters are not going to like the idea of pilots being taken "off line" to indulge in some form of high AOA manouvering course ( though we could invoke the tombstone imperative). Also would such training, presumably in a light aircraft, really prepare one to really unload the wing of a 200 tonne plus airliner at night, in IMC?

If a pilot is adept at attitude instrument flying, power management, and recognition of erroneous airspeed indications, he would unload the wing whether or not he understood the aerodynamic implications.

Having said that, having conventional thrust levers and flight controls would probably help as well.

[SDFlyer]

Recent posts bring up an interesting question - to me anyway. Does anyone here have any idea (rough estimate) what proportion of jet pilots fly light aircraft "recreationally". That is, own their own Cessna/Cirrus/light twin/whatever or rent one occasionally.

Back in the day, when my old man worked for Pan Am (as a dispatcher in Europe), I recall learning that a fair number of pilots put some piston hours in every year. Couldn't say what percentage though.

This might be a tad off topic, but then again it might not be. When I go up for a couple hours in a Cessna I like to spend a fair bit of time in unusual attitudes, incl. falling leaves, power-on stalls and the like (lots of trim wheel cranking involved). It's one of my favorite things.

Any thoughts?

[Lonewolf_50]

SD, I have a friend who flies for Southwest. A few years back, he restored and flew a T-34B for a while. I think he later sold it. He once told me he had to be careful how much recreational time he flew, since his log book entries compared to his log book entries for the 737 he flew for pay could not exceed X hours without a waiver, or he'd violate a rule (IIRC, an FAA rule). Not sure enough about the rules to say more.

[shortfinals]

Don't worry about recovery from extreme attitudes chaps/chapesses: Rockwell Collins is going to replace the P2 with a button that will put your aeroplane the right way up if you don't know what that is:

Rockwell Collins to inject new autonomy into business jets

Oh yes, and if you don't notice the cabin altitude has climbed too high the FMS will turn and dive the aircraft for you.

And when you lose all engines in ash it'll calculate let-downs to all nearby aerodromes.

Ho hum! Anything left for me to do, then?

[ChristiaanJ]

Originally Posted by shortfinals

Anything left for me to do, then?

Somebody will still be needed to push the panic button, no?

[MountainBear]

Rockwell Collins is going to replace the P2 with a button that will put your aeroplane the right way up if you don't know what that is:

If a pilot has lost situational awareness by definition he has lost the presence of mind to press a button. If he comprehends enough about the situation to press a button to save the aircraft he truly hasn't lost situational awareness. At least he hasn't lost it completely.

To me, it sounds like the type of 'idiot button'. The type of thing a person would use when they comprehend the situation quite well but they don't have a clue as to have to fix it.

[stepwilk]

Sort of the air-transport version of the Cirrus SR-20/22 BRS parachute, then...

[recceguy]

Just give more consideration to the hiring of ex-fighter pilots, by factoring their hours an appropriate way

Cathay Pacific and Virgin are doing that, I believe.
Those hours are in any case more appropriate than general aviation hours, of which some have been writing about just above.

[SevenSeas]

What happened to Stick Pushers ?

[EGMA]

What happened to Stick Pushers ?

They were made redundant by pen pushers.

[Hirem J Trashcan]

Oh yes, and if you don't notice the cabin altitude has climbed too high the FMS will turn and dive the aircraft for you.

FMS = Fix My Situation ?

I still find it hard to believe that a simple event like loss of accurate airspeed indication could lead to the total loss of a modern commercial jet aircraft

[aterpster]

Hirem Trashcan:

I still find it hard to believe that a simple event like loss of accurate airspeed indication could lead to the total loss of a modern commercial jet aircraft

Check this out:

AVmail: June 6, 2011

[aguadalte]

aterpster:

Check this out:

AVmail: June 6, 2011

Although I generally agree with the "video game" idea of the author of that letter, I think his idea of "following Flight Directors" is wrong, once in the case of AF447, FD's were not available, which turned the "game" much more difficult...

[ChicoG]

Lest we forget the human cost of this accident...

I hope this will bring comfort to some of the families. Very sad.

The last salvaged bodies and wreckage from the Air France flight that crashed into the Atlantic in 2009 arrived by boat in a French harbour on Thursday.

Back from a months-long mission dredging the depths of the ocean, the Ile-de-Sein salvage ship pulled into Bayonne harbour in southwestern France at dawn in the rain and fog, an APF reporter witnessed.

Authorities said it was carrying four containers -- three with wreckage from the Airbus 330 plane and the last with remains of 104 of the 228 people killed in the crash, dredged from thousands of metres (yards) under the sea.

Authorities closed off the harbour to onlookers out of respect for the victims' families. Officials said a short ceremony was planned when the bodies were unloaded.

The BEA aviation authority investigating the crash said the human remains will be transferred to a forensic mortuary for examination, and the plane wreckage to a hangar.

Rescue workers recovered 50 bodies in the days immediately after the crash. More than 70 could not be retrieved in the two years of searching.

The plane crashed en route from Rio de Janeiro to Paris on June 1, 2009. It took investigators until last month to salvage the black-box flight recorders from the wreck on the ocean bed.

According to information from the flight data recorders, released earlier by the BEA, the pilots saw conflicting speeds on their instruments as the plane stalled and fell into the sea.

The BEA is due to deliver a report in July on the causes of the crash.

[takata]

Originally Posted by aguadalte

Originally Posted by aterpster

Check this out:
AVmail: June 6, 2011

Although I generally agree with the "video game" idea of the author of that letter, I think his idea of "following Flight Directors" is wrong, once in the case of AF447, FD's were not available, which turned the "game" much more difficult...

I wonder also how someone calling himself "one of the most experienced A330 Captain" (this AVmail's letter author) may be also completely wrong about what an A330 autothrust is actually doing when it is disconnected at cruise level by the system (thrust is locked at its last settings without being "moved/adjusted" to the levers actual position. ie. levers set to CLB at cruise, N1 at 75% won't result, if autothrust is kicking off, to Max climb thrust => thrust will stay locked at 75%, including a warning).

Hence, his whole point is quite moot and his credentials very doubtful.
He certainly should be called a "video game A330 expert".

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Methink .. Air France will face some problems ....

From the BEA preliminary report:

1.5.1.2 Copilote
Homme, 37 ans
Licence ATPL obtenue le 13 avril 2001
Qualification de type Airbus A340 obtenue le 14 février 2002
Fin d’adaptation en ligne le 13 avril 2002
Qualification de type Airbus A330 obtenue le 1er octobre 2002
Fin d’adaptation en ligne le 25 octobre 2002
Autre qualification de type : Airbus A320 obtenue en février 1999

1.5.1.3 Copilote
Homme, 32 ans
Licence FCL de pilote professionnel (CPL) obtenue le 23 avril 2001
Qualification de vol aux instruments multi-moteur (IR ME) obtenue le
16 octobre 2001
ATPL théorique obtenu en septembre 2000
Qualification de type Airbus A340 obtenue le 26 février 2008
Fin d’adaptation en ligne le 9 juin 2008
Qualification de type Airbus A330 obtenue le 1er
décembre 2008
Fin d’adaptation en ligne le 22 décembre 2008
Autre qualification de type : Airbus A320 obtenue le 7 septembre 2004

1.5.1.2 Co-pilot
Man, 37
ATPL obtained April 13, 2001
Type Rating Airbus A340 obtained February 14, 2002
End adaptation online April 13, 2002
Type Rating Airbus A330 obtained on 1 October 2002
End adaptation online 25 October 2002
Other Type Rating: Airbus A320 obtained in February 1999

1.5.1.3 Co-pilot
Male, 32 years
FCL Commercial Pilot Licence (CPL) obtained 23 April 2001
Rating instrument multi-engine (ME IR) obtained the
October 16, 2001
ATPL theory obtained in September 2000
Type Rating Airbus A340 obtained February 26, 2008
End adaptation online 9 June 2008
Type Rating Airbus A330 obtained the first
December 2008
End adaptation online 22 December 2008

It's appears that the copilot aged 32 years was the PF and was in the right seat.
Why it was in the right seat as PF with no ATPL in abscence of the captain ?

[takata]

Hi jcjeant,

Originally Posted by jcjeant

Methink .. Air France will face some problems ....
[...]
It's appears that the copilot aged 32 years was the PF and was in the right seat.
Why it was in the right seat as PF with no ATPL in abscence of the captain?

Actually, despite what the press is saying, the PF was certainly the other one, 37 years old (FO1) in Right Hand Seat, with 32 years old FO2 being the relief pilot just replacing the Captain as PNF in Left Hand Seat before the start of the accident.
No qualification is needed for LHS during cruise legs and it is standard for AF to use this resting order for second cruise legs.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Actually, despite what the press is saying, the PF was certainly the other one, 37 years old (FO1) in Right Hand Seat, with 32 years old FO2 being the relief pilot just replacing the Captain as PNF in Left Hand Seat before the start of the accident.
No qualification is needed for LHS during cruise legs and it is standard for AF to use this resting order for second cruise legs.

I'm not on the professional side ...
Can you post here the AF rule(s) about flight deck pilots management in cruise (what is required by pilot to be PF and when) on long haul (licenses etc .. )
Thank you in advance.

Actually, despite what the press is saying, the PF was certainly the other one, 37 years old (FO1) in Right Hand Seat

So far I can't be certain (like you) of this fact ..

[hetfield]

No qualification is needed for LHS during cruise legs and it is standard for AF to use this resting order for second cruise legs.

Oooops, are you sure?

As far as I know, e.g. for LUFTHANSA, there is a special qualification called Senior First Officer.

It takes several weeks including classroom instructions and simulator.

[camel]

Takata

ok so if the PF was the more experienced f/o in the rhs and then couldnt handle the problems thrown at them ..was control handed over to the other less experienced f/o in the lhs?

if control was not handed over then why didnt the capt just swap places with the less experienced pnf f/o in the lhs ?

is a 'frozen' atpl even allowed to sit in the lhs as pnf ?

or am i missing something here ?