AF447 wreckage found
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GerardC.
You may be correct on a number of items. I (like all others who have posted on this topic) don't have the answers to this accident. All we can do is speculate with the meagre facts reported so far. We can only base our opinions on the many years spent flying different jets under all kinds of weather conditions.
Perhaps you would like to enlighten me on the difference between red on the wx satellite photo and red on the radar screen, I had no idea there was a difference. To me, red is red and means danger.
I agree there has been no mention of radar failure. This is only a hunch on my part given the fact that they flew through what appears to be an area of bad weather (even though they must have received a weather briefing before departure from Rio) and the fact that Airbus issued a notam reminding us not to depart with inop radar if there is known weather on the route. This came some time after the 447 crash. coincidence ? Maybe.
The other question is, why did other aircraft deviate around this weather that wasn't so bad in the eyes of some? Were they stupid to burn unnecessary fuel? Are they alive today?
I walked away from flying 2 years ago after surviving 32 years on 5 different jets. I did not fly through CBs at any time in my career. The old saying "prevention is better than cure" was always my guide. Thanks you for your interest in my post.
You may be correct on a number of items. I (like all others who have posted on this topic) don't have the answers to this accident. All we can do is speculate with the meagre facts reported so far. We can only base our opinions on the many years spent flying different jets under all kinds of weather conditions.
Perhaps you would like to enlighten me on the difference between red on the wx satellite photo and red on the radar screen, I had no idea there was a difference. To me, red is red and means danger.
I agree there has been no mention of radar failure. This is only a hunch on my part given the fact that they flew through what appears to be an area of bad weather (even though they must have received a weather briefing before departure from Rio) and the fact that Airbus issued a notam reminding us not to depart with inop radar if there is known weather on the route. This came some time after the 447 crash. coincidence ? Maybe.
The other question is, why did other aircraft deviate around this weather that wasn't so bad in the eyes of some? Were they stupid to burn unnecessary fuel? Are they alive today?
I walked away from flying 2 years ago after surviving 32 years on 5 different jets. I did not fly through CBs at any time in my career. The old saying "prevention is better than cure" was always my guide. Thanks you for your interest in my post.
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Hi,
More questions about softwares ...
Do the BEA use this for their investigations concerning the FDR data ?
Flight data analysis software - Flight analysis 3D : CEFA Aviation
http://www.cefa-aviation.com/CEFA%20Brochure.pdf
Or this ?
SimAuthor, The Leader in Flight Data Analysis & Visualization
A result of their usage
(with a stall)
If they use one of those softwares ... can we assume they know many more than some weeks ago ?
More questions about softwares ...
Do the BEA use this for their investigations concerning the FDR data ?
Flight data analysis software - Flight analysis 3D : CEFA Aviation
http://www.cefa-aviation.com/CEFA%20Brochure.pdf
Or this ?
SimAuthor, The Leader in Flight Data Analysis & Visualization
A result of their usage
If they use one of those softwares ... can we assume they know many more than some weeks ago ?
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I ain't ever flown Airbus. But reading about this accident and looking back over it seems an endless stream of similar disasters... well, it has got to be the end of the road for Airbus' cockpit and flight control design philosophies. And ditto for such loony ideas as multi-crew licenses.
FBW pilots should spend four hours a year minimum in aerobatic gliders. It wouldn't do the rest any harm either.
FBW pilots should spend four hours a year minimum in aerobatic gliders. It wouldn't do the rest any harm either.
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...and agree on the aerobatics, too... But to all airline pilots. Not just Airbus drivers.
Gliders and aerobatics are a great learning tool. It is unbelievable the number of actual airline pilots who have never actually experienced to fly more than 30 deg bank turns...
Gliders and aerobatics are a great learning tool. It is unbelievable the number of actual airline pilots who have never actually experienced to fly more than 30 deg bank turns...
More questions about softwares ...
Do the BEA use this for their investigations concerning the FDR data ?
Flight data analysis software - Flight analysis 3D : CEFA Aviation
http://www.cefa-aviation.com/CEFA%20Brochure.pdf
Or this ?
SimAuthor, The Leader in Flight Data Analysis & Visualization
A result of their usage
YouTube - ‪Flight Data Visualisation as a Briefing Tool‬‏
Do the BEA use this for their investigations concerning the FDR data ?
Flight data analysis software - Flight analysis 3D : CEFA Aviation
http://www.cefa-aviation.com/CEFA%20Brochure.pdf
Or this ?
SimAuthor, The Leader in Flight Data Analysis & Visualization
A result of their usage
YouTube - ‪Flight Data Visualisation as a Briefing Tool‬‏
There is a big difference.
Imagine the uproar about computer limitation on planes being explained by yet another computer limitation in an analysis tool
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Objective investigation?
Latest AW&ST has a must-read commentary by Pierre Sparaco - Information Chaos (p.50, 13 June 2011)
He quotes Thierry Mariani as expressing hope the investigation can be completed in time for Airbus' marketing push at the Paris Air Show (!)
A veritable model of impartiality.
He quotes Thierry Mariani as expressing hope the investigation can be completed in time for Airbus' marketing push at the Paris Air Show (!)
A veritable model of impartiality.
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Pitch, power, airspeed, altitude?
At high altitude, unless you have rocket power, available thrust is always less than at low altitude.
But gravity is always available as an acceleration force, and it's undiminished by altitude.
At high altitude, unless you have rocket power, available thrust is always less than at low altitude.
But gravity is always available as an acceleration force, and it's undiminished by altitude.
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jafa
Terrific point, IMO, jafa. Anyone who thinks that 'power comes first' should try a bit of flying with no engine!
Mind you, we're very lucky here in Australia - there are so many thermals around, most of the year, that in my gliding days we quite often had to use the spoiler to get the darn thing to go down at ALL......
But, flying sailplanes, you very quickly realised that 'pitch' really WAS your primary source of 'power.' Flying nose-up for any length of time in a glider meant, quite simply and quite soon, loss of airspeed and an inevitable stall.
FBW pilots should spend four hours a year minimum in aerobatic gliders. It wouldn't do the rest any harm either.
Mind you, we're very lucky here in Australia - there are so many thermals around, most of the year, that in my gliding days we quite often had to use the spoiler to get the darn thing to go down at ALL......
But, flying sailplanes, you very quickly realised that 'pitch' really WAS your primary source of 'power.' Flying nose-up for any length of time in a glider meant, quite simply and quite soon, loss of airspeed and an inevitable stall.
Last edited by RWA; 14th Jun 2011 at 14:39.
) ?
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jcjeant wrote :
From the BEA report Perpignan
Crew maybe not very very experienced ... but certainly more than those of the AF447
.............
The crew of Toulouse test flight:
Very more experienced ? .. maybe as test pilots ......
From the BEA report Perpignan
Crew maybe not very very experienced ... but certainly more than those of the AF447
.............
The crew of Toulouse test flight:
Very more experienced ? .. maybe as test pilots ......
It's hard to admit for a lot in the industry, but flight hours don't have the same value, depending on the background... Even if it doesn't prevent them for having accidents (see Toulouse Airbus crew, also british Trident stall in the 60's, dozens of others...) hours in a flight test environment have thirty (or more ?) time the value of hours in an airline environnment, with nothing happening in cruise, and landings always identical - if not in external conditions, but for sure in performing. Comparing flight hours of both sides is like mixing strawberries with potatoes.
Maybe there will be an understanding of all this after ?
The Perpignan crew was conducting an acceptance flight, and they had no training for that, period. To call them test pilots is totally unappropriate. I know that in the companies (including mine) you have supposed experienced pilots, calling themselves "test pilots" when they just perform "out-of-maintenance" check flights ....
One day airline pilots will have to admit that their hours don't have big value, compared to other backgrounds ... but as flying big jets is supposed to be the pinnacle of careers, its' not going to happen soon, I'm afraid.
Jafa and others said just above : give airlines pilots 4 hours of glider every year (or 4 hours of aerobatic aircraft) ... Who will pay for those hours ? Airlines are already saving money on pilot's food and hotel allowances, they are squeezing every hour of duty times from them, and you would expect them to pay for general aviation hours for their pilots (thus losing flying days of the same pilots, by the way..) A bit unrealistic, I'm afraid.
Just give more consideration to the hiring of ex-fighter pilots, by factoring their hours an appropriate way, and the industry will have moved significantly forward regarding safety. Yes, I know, very difficult to swallow for some, especially for those having been saying for years " Ah those guys for sure, have a good set of hands, but in commercial approach... bla-bla-bla-... CRM...bla-bla-bla-... putting mission before safety...bla-bla-bla..(what the hell do they imagine with this last point ?!?)
As AF337 is showing, a good set of hands and an alert eye might be of some use from time to time in aviation.
And stop flying at night with the storm light "On" in the cockpit, that will help a little bit... (flying in a dark cockpit is also supposed to be typical of ex-military pilots, I heard...)
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thermostat
Please do your own homework on the subject. (in breif : colors on Wx satellite pictures are based on temperature ; colors on "our" radar displays are based on droplets size. Red on a satellite picture do not mean "danger", these temperature differences could be shown with any other color).
Perhaps you would like to enlighten me on the difference between red on the wx satellite photo and red on the radar screen, I had no idea there was a difference. To me, red is red and means danger.
And stop flying at night with the storm light "On" in the cockpit, that will help a little bit... (flying in a dark cockpit is also supposed to be typical of ex-military pilots, I heard...)
Lucky for the airlines, that modification requirement hasn't arrived.
Will it? Not sure. Treating night as instrument probably covers most bases in that regard ... with the exception of different challenges in see and avoid.
Which takes us to the weather/clouds.
"See and avoid" vis a vis clouds at night can be tricky.
For Gerard: To expand on your comment in re weather.
The depicted differences in temperature (Vasquez plots referred to) typically accompany differences in the characteristic of the air columns within a cloud (like the build ups in the ITCZ), a difference which at high altitude (warm air rising) any pilot will be interested in since it influences his aircraft's performance to one degree or another. (AF 447 crew were keeping an eye on temp (was TAT probe iced?) and commented on how that influenced their original plans for the route ...) Is there a way to link those sorts of data from weather services to a cockpit selectable screen?
Food for thought. Might be a handy tool for crews at high altitude. (IIRC, we discussed this somewhat in the first iteration of the AF 447 search thread ... )
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Is there a way to link those sorts of data from weather services to a cockpit selectable screen?
I understand weather can be displayed on the flydeck over USA only for the time being (wonder if many airlines invested in the system ?).
Concerning temperature, you have to monitor SAT at all times (especially in this area) not only for aircraft performance but also for icing : it is not uncommon to see the SAT rise well above -40° C at cruising flight levels.
If you get into clouds -> NAI ON even at FL 350...
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In reply to aguadalte: ...and agree on the aerobatics, too... But to all airline pilots. Not just Airbus drivers.
Gliders and aerobatics are a great learning tool. It is unbelievable the number of actual airline pilots who have never actually experienced to fly more than 30 deg bank turns...
YES! Totally agreed!
Maybe in the long run we could even extinct the use of the word "Stall speed" by Pilots and use the correct "Stall angle of attack".
Especially in aerobatics it can be seen - and demonstrated - that a wing can be stalled at almost any speed (limited by structural design), remain unstalled even at 0 airspeed (with 0 g´s) and that the attitude / pitch / bank is only secondary.
Gliders and aerobatics are a great learning tool. It is unbelievable the number of actual airline pilots who have never actually experienced to fly more than 30 deg bank turns...
YES! Totally agreed!
Maybe in the long run we could even extinct the use of the word "Stall speed" by Pilots and use the correct "Stall angle of attack".
Especially in aerobatics it can be seen - and demonstrated - that a wing can be stalled at almost any speed (limited by structural design), remain unstalled even at 0 airspeed (with 0 g´s) and that the attitude / pitch / bank is only secondary.
But to all airline pilots. Not just Airbus drivers.
Gliders and aerobatics are a great learning tool.
Gliders and aerobatics are a great learning tool.
Problem is the airline bean counters are not going to like the idea of pilots being taken "off line" to indulge in some form of high AOA manouvering course ( though we could invoke the tombstone imperative). Also would such training, presumably in a light aircraft, really prepare one to really unload the wing of a 200 tonne plus airliner at night, in IMC?