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AF447 wreckage found

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AF447 wreckage found

Old 31st May 2011, 23:15
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The common thread throughout is that 'even an ab-initio PPL should have been able to recognize and recover this stall'.

In my flight testing I have had the experience of recovering from a fully developed stall on partial panel when the b$tard sitting next to me has applied full aft trim. Easy, if you know what the aircraft is doing.

It is a different kettle of fish if the the manual tells you, that for no speed info, you apply nose-up and power. At altitude this is going to take you to a stall, then, with (hidden) full aft trim, no stall warning and a TOGA power pitch-up couple you are probably flying an unrecoverable aircraft.

These pilots weren't stupid, there but for the grace ....
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Old 31st May 2011, 23:26
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the b$tard sitting next to you

EGMA : In my flight testing I have had the experience of recovering from a fully developed stall on partial panel when the b$tard sitting next to me has applied full aft trim
According to you, in the AF447, was the "b$tard" a human factor, the plane or the weather ?
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Old 31st May 2011, 23:41
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My last employer mandated a second Captain for an augmented crew, and we also had a Flt. Eng., someone with aviation experience on the flight deck who might just be thinking outside the box relative to a pilots' thoughts, and also wasn't physically involved in handling the hardware in the same manner as the pilot, so could look at a problem from a different angle.

But that costs money, and we must always genufluct to Progress.( and profit )

The last words recorded from another accident where the pilot was confused as to the information he was receiving was - look at the standby ( which was giving the correct info. ) shouted by the F/Eng. Too late unfortunately, which of course raises issues of P.C. culture and CRM as well.
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Old 31st May 2011, 23:42
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In my case it was the examiner, in their case in the absence of a trim wheel ....?

In either case relaxation of nose down can, or will, lead to a second stall ...
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Old 31st May 2011, 23:52
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Who designed this (to create a page nobody can read and wonders why) ?
I think most of us figured it out a long time ago.
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 00:07
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Wiggy, a 744 on UN873, the same airway as AF447, and preceding it by about 20 minutes deviated around the heaviest weather. A 340 following AF447 by 12 minutes also deviated. The next flight following the 340 was AF459, which deviated to both the left and right to fly around the MCC. AF459 deviated by 70 NM to the right of the track.
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 00:39
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..........Is there any way of trimming the stabiliser really "manually" ?
Arhhhhhggg!

Look, if you haven't read much of the thread you shouldn't be posting and wasting more time & space having your repeat questions re-answered

It was explained barely a dozen pages back (for about the 5th time!!)
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 00:47
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Nose Up

What would cause PF to keep the A/C in what I would summarize as a flared landing stall from FL380 to impact.
There is surely a missing piece here. Clearly the BEA statement is an extreme simplification of the facts. It implies that the pilots did everything professionally i.e. handled the a/c correctly given their training. Logically the cause must lie somewhere other than the pilots?

Presumably they did not ignore/neglect the flight instruments?
Were the flight instruments degraded more than just losing the Airspeed that the BEA is yet to release.
Did significant ice build up degrade the handling character of the airframe.

One thing is clear. A continuous tone stall warning would have helped as the plane had effectively "flat lined". The stall warning should not disable as the speed decays, if anything it should get loader.

IMHO the missing piece of why they sticked back is the largest hole in the swiss cheese. I was hoping for some resolution from BEA or the forum. However the statement has raised more questions than it has answered.


The other holes in the swiss cheese are a grey area and open to argument.
  1. AF chose to not update pitots aggresively as some other airlines.
  2. Prior to departure the Captain chose a flight path directly through the storm whereas the subsequent flights (Iberia and Lufthansa) took on extra fuel and significantly deviated.
  3. Captain chose to take bunk rest during the more challenging part of the flight.
  4. Airbus training in excursions outside the normal flight envelope and outside normal law are under represented.
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 01:16
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I presume all data from all sensors gets recorded on the Flight Data Recorder, so there will be information saying they were in a stall and AoA when in fact due to frozen probes they, at the start at least, were not in a stall and the AoA is incorrect. The only correct information being pitch and power the same as what the pilots would have?
Why this has been released to the media in the way it has seems very poor management.
I have sat here reading as many posts as possible, it is a shame the pilot concerned has been referred to as a Baby and its been jumped on by all and sundry. I wonder how you would cope given the situation of long haul and in the frame of being in a routine. Unreliable airspeed is hard enough to cope with, but in a storm cell, never mind later on when your tail rips off -which the latter I haven't seen anyone make reference to yet.

Re 2 previous post, I seem to recall something about this specific route being tight on fuel in order to be achieved, and this is the reason they did not deviate around the storm, they simply couldn't spare the gas??
Or much simpler, they missed it in the departure brief and missed the trick of turning up the brightness on the weather radar so saw nothing! (latter been done before)
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 01:36
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never mind later on when your tail rips off -which the latter I haven't seen anyone make reference to yet.
The tail didn't rip off while in flight but upon impact. That was one of the first findings 2 years ago.
Short of fuel ? Pressure ?
All I can say is this : in all the years I have been flying for AF, not once have I been given the " frown " for taking whatever quantity of fuel I deemed necessary.
We have figures as to the cost, that's all. The rest is entirely left up to you, your experience and judgement.
If I ever felt pressure......it was the one I was puting myself under.

AF chose to not update pitots aggresively as some other airlines.
Prior to departure the Captain chose a flight path directly through the storm whereas the subsequent flights (Iberia and Lufthansa) took on extra fuel and significantly deviated.
Captain chose to take bunk rest during the more challenging part of the flight.
Airbus training in excursions outside the normal flight envelope and outside normal law are under represented.
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 01:46
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Once enroute you can always get deviations for weather so I am sure all the other airliners on the same route did that. It still looks like the final report will be the repeated Airbus pitot/static problems that were slow in being corrected. The copilots should have been able to handle unreliable airspeed with no problem. Everybody wonders why the PF pulled back and zoomed to FL380 and entered a deep stall.

No airliner I have flown says to pull back, it says to hold appropriate pitch and power for weight and altitude. I know the Airbus has no feedback of what the other pilot is doing so complicates things.
Also the interim report leaves out so much information they have for some reason so even though I am sure they know what happened, we don't with the lack of information. The CVR will tell a lot of the story and the FDR will tell the rest when they release it.
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 03:39
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Undercarriage Microswitch

Late but hopefully useful
This thread is galloping forwards so fast that I'm replying to something three pages ago, but it was only a few hours ago, and it needs answered because it is another daft blind alley.

Someone said:
Quote:
I can't believe anybody would certify an airliner that is stalled but the stall warning mutes because the pitot static system senses less than 60 knots. That is nuts.
I think you will find that is completely normal, and even a microsecond of thought will tell you why. Think "parked on the taxiway". There's a strong chance the wing is fully stalled, but we'll supress the stall warning until we've got some speed up, thank-you.
I think that you will find it is normal to use an undercarriage microswitch so that when the aircraft is 'sat on the runway' the weight compresses the oleo and the microswitch says 'ON' when the weight is off the undercarriage the microswitch says 'OFF'. This is used for OOOI by ACARS but apparently is too simple for the Airbus design team who instead put in a system that was based on their assumption that at less than 60 kts the aircraft will be on the ground.
That was an incorrect assumption which in this case may have been one of the series of errors that ended with a destroyed aircraft.
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 03:45
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75 additional bodies recovered from Air France crash after 2 years

Unless I skipped a page somewhere, I've not seen this posted. Apologies if it has been.

75 additional bodies recovered from Air France crash after 2 years - CNN.com

This is contrary to decisions I thought were made weeks ago.
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 04:10
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Stall Whining

I wish somebody intimate with AOA vanes would come on here and explain authoritatively why stall warning shuts off below 60. It's a physical limitation. Maybe one of you whiners could come up with a design that's better than the present one, which is nearly as universal as the pitot tube. How often has the present design even been criticized in an accident investigation, let alone blamed?
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 04:39
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A question for all the experts....

There has been no discussion of the lack of a distress call from AF447. Does this indicate the lack of situational awareness on the flight deck as they where struggling with the jet? Is it SOP to put out a distress signal when the is hitting the fan, regardless of where you are? Where the pilots to busy to put out a call, or too confused?
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 04:40
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Extra Fuel

Delta T,
if you have to deviate around a large storm system and by doing so you run short of fuel, then you make an en route stop for fuel. It's that simple. They could have stopped in the Canaries or Lisbon for fuel, but now they will never have the chance of taking fuel ever again. Please pay attention to the fact that other flights took extra fuel, deviated and arrived safely. Flying is serious business.
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 04:56
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Quote:
Who designed this (to create a page nobody can read and wonders why) ?
I think most of us figured it out a long time ago.
Yep, but it took me longer than 3.5 minutes ...
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 05:03
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There has been no discussion of the lack of a distress call from AF447.

Aviate, navigate, communicate. They hadn't got past the first which is why you see no discussion of the third.
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 05:38
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Cool

Hi,

Fuel ?

Prior to departure the Captain chose a flight path directly through the storm whereas the subsequent flights (Iberia and Lufthansa) took on extra fuel and significantly deviated.
Delta T,
if you have to deviate around a large storm system and by doing so you run short of fuel, then you make an en route stop for fuel. It's that simple. They could have stopped in the Canaries or Lisbon for fuel, but now they will never have the chance of taking fuel ever again. Please pay attention to the fact that other flights took extra fuel, deviated and arrived safely. Flying is serious business.
The BEA report:
The take-off weight was 232.8 t (for a MTOW of 233t), including 70.4 t of fuel.
Do you know the extra fuel quantity take on board by Iberia and Lufthansa ?

The AF447 flight had enough fuel for change his route.
Read also the two BEA preliminary reports.

Bodies recovered
This is contrary to decisions I thought were made weeks ago.
Those decisions were nullified by another .. one week ago when the results of ADN research on the two firsts bodies recovered were positive

Distress call

Where the pilots to busy to put out a call, or too confused?
You answered yourself ....

Last edited by jcjeant; 1st Jun 2011 at 05:51.
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Old 1st Jun 2011, 07:07
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Zoom climb

"Everybody wonders why the PF pulled back and zoomed to FL380 and entered a deep stall."

I never read it that way. My read is that they were unable to climb because the temperature did not fall. Never any indication that they "planned" a climb.

I read NOT that they climbed, but they ascended, or, they were pushed, or, caught a severe updraft, and then wound up at 38,000 in a nose up condition, at below 60kts and thus literally out of control because at that time the controls would be inneffective.

Which is consistant with being in a thunderstorm.
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