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Approach Ban

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Approach Ban

Old 11th Mar 2011, 20:27
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Approach Ban

Hello there,

Regarding Approach Ban, is there a difference on holding approach from a straight in approach?

Tnx
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Old 11th Mar 2011, 20:40
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Could you explain this more please?
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Old 11th Mar 2011, 22:32
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If I understand you correctly B737-800W, you are asking if the same 'approach ban' criteria apply to:

an approach which is started from a holding pattern; and

a straight-in approach.

The answer has to be, 'yes'.

I hope I haven't missed something!

Eck
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Old 12th Mar 2011, 10:09
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I guess you wouldn't leave the hold without the minima being correct or above.

Not sure how this stands legally but it makes sense.

Will go look in a book.....
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Old 12th Mar 2011, 12:03
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Does the approach ban have any sense in CAT IIIB no DH approaches?

I don't think so.
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Old 12th Mar 2011, 12:37
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An approach ban is an altitude at which if the visibility is below the crew/aircraft minima, the pilots must initiate a missed approach.
Some ATC will request your minima before they clear for the approach and will provide you with the actual RVR at the 1000ft/OM.(non-precision/precision).
As a pilot you can request the info too.
But again some play by the rules and some don't.
Seen/heard scary things over the years...
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Old 12th Mar 2011, 13:17
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Does the approach ban have any sense in CAT IIIB no DH approaches?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think so.
Cat IIIB still has a minimum RVR value- I the reported RVR falls below this before the ABP, the approach cannot be continued.
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Old 12th Mar 2011, 14:02
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Most airports in the world you can fly the approach, and it is your decision at what stage (not below published min) you decide to scrub it. Some airports (Dhaka) (Local rules) will not allow you to attempt an approach!
Check the AIP.
Be safe, Alex
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Old 12th Mar 2011, 14:35
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It does not matter how you get onto the final approach (radar vector, procedure or holding then procedure etc.) the approach ban is still there. (This assumes the country you are operating in and or the company you work for recognise this 'ban').
As JAR and EASA have the approach ban point as the outer marker, equivilant point or 1000' aal then all holding will be above this altitude or certainly further out on the approach path.
You will therefore have a distance to travel along the final approach path prior to the approach ban point for all instrument approaches.
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Old 12th Mar 2011, 14:46
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At Heathrow even if nothing was holding but an inbound provided his minima which was below limits we would instruct him to join the hold..
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Old 12th Mar 2011, 17:28
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Wizofoz

In a CAT I, CAT II, CAT IIIA and CATIIIB-with-DH approaches, after we overfly the OM we are allowed continue the approach even if reported RVR gets below minimum. But we can only continue till the DH, at which we go around unless we have the required visual references.

what if there is no DH at all?

In CAT IIIB-with-no-DH there is no DH, only AH. There is nothing to decide, no point at which we have to see any visual references. So I guess we should overshoot as soon as the RVR goes below minimum, at any moment during approach. Or maybe revert to CAT IIIB-with-DH minimum and then decide at that DH, It occurs to me now.
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Old 12th Mar 2011, 18:03
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For Category II operations the TDZ measurement is required, and for Category III operations the TDZ and MID measurements are mandatory. For CAT III without DH EU-OPS 1 requires only one RVR measuring point on the runway. FAA requires all 3 RVR readings to be available and above minimum. Approach ban Policy regarding an approach ban may differ from country to country. Usually the final approach segment may not be continued beyond the OM or equivalent DME distance if the reported RVR is below the published minima for the required transmissometers. After OM or equivalent position, if RVR becomes lower than the minima, the approach may be continued. FAA certified operators usually have OPS specs with FAF being nominated as approach ban point. Some countries set the approach ban at IAF.
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Old 12th Mar 2011, 18:07
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In a CAT I, CAT II, CAT IIIA and CATIIIB-with-DH approaches, after we overfly the OM we are allowed continue the approach even if reported RVR gets below minimum. But we can only continue till the DH, at which we go around unless we have the required visual references.

what if there is no DH at all?

In CAT IIIB-with-no-DH there is no DH, only AH. There is nothing to decide, no point at which we have to see any visual references. So I guess we should overshoot as soon as the RVR goes below minimum, at any moment during approach. Or maybe revert to CAT IIIB-with-DH minimum and then decide at that DH, It occurs to me now.
What?

Nooooooo

Right , you have to have the required RVR at the approach ban point, (Outer marker or equivalent normally check your company SOP) after that you can if you wish continue with the approach to your appropriate minima. A Cat3b No DH approach means you can continue through to the ground... the clue is in the no decision height bit.
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Old 12th Mar 2011, 18:54
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Guess it depends on your local regulator. Ours required that we have to discontinue the approach at any point of the approach if the RVR drops below the CAT IIIb required RVR (75m for the 737). Same justification as Microburst posted.
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Old 13th Mar 2011, 04:31
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Wizofoz

In a CAT I, CAT II, CAT IIIA and CATIIIB-with-DH approaches, after we overfly the OM we are allowed continue the approach even if reported RVR gets below minimum. But we can only continue till the DH, at which we go around unless we have the required visual references.

what if there is no DH at all?

In CAT IIIB-with-no-DH there is no DH, only AH. There is nothing to decide, no point at which we have to see any visual references. So I guess we should overshoot as soon as the RVR goes below minimum, at any moment during approach. Or maybe revert to CAT IIIB-with-DH minimum and then decide at that DH, It occurs to me now.
Day-sleeper is correct. I don't know how you came to understand the rules as above.

Firstly, ABP is not always (or even usually) the OM.

If sufficient RVR (absolute minimum for Cat IIIB is 75m) is reported at ABP- continue approach

If sufficient RVR is NOT available at ABP, go around.

After ABP- continue- and yes, for a Cat IIIB that means continue to touch down, with no requirement to establish a visual reference.

Is that clearer?
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Old 13th Mar 2011, 05:58
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So as I said, aproach ban has no sense in a CAT IIIB noDH approach!

Denti, thanks.
What is your local regulator?

Daysleeper

so in a CAT IIIB no DH approach I can continue if RVR becomes 0/0/0 if I have already passed the approach ban height (say 1,400 AGL)? Noooo, I don't think so.
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Old 13th Mar 2011, 08:10
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Microburst 2002:

so in a CAT IIIB no DH approach I can continue if RVR becomes 0/0/0 if I have already passed the approach ban height (say 1,400 AGL)? Noooo, I don't think so.


Yes, it is correct: the regulation (Eu-ops) just changed. In the New version, no more required to go around in CAT IIIB no DH if RVR goes below 75....
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Old 13th Mar 2011, 08:21
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Microburst2002, it all depends on the OPS specs and country regs you're flying to. Under EU OPS one can commence the approach regardless of reported RVR and may not continue beyond ABP if it falls below the required one. For CAT IIIb you only require single RVR anywhere along the RWY of 75 m, that's all. Once you passed ABP RVR is of no relevance any more it's a simple reliance on sophisticated automation therefore the AH. It's a different ball game with FAA folks once again their specs stipulate all three RVR to be above and available to commence CAT III b approach however once passed the ABP the approach can be continued regardless of RVR as under EU OPS as well. Approach ban policies vary with countries thus make sure to check the applicable regs.
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Old 13th Mar 2011, 08:55
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@microburst, LBA or german CAA of course operating under EU-OPS. We are required to have at least 75m RVR for CAT IIIb on the 737 during the whole approach, no approach ban so no difference if before or after a certain point. Those 75m have to be met for all points covering the required landing distance (computed to dispatch criteria). Even on our non fail operational 737 those 75m are now a hard go-around criteria during all parts of the approach, however after the ABP we can continue if the RVR falls below the CAT III value but still is 75m or greater.
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Old 13th Mar 2011, 09:32
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Our ABP is now 1000' aal for all types of approaches. No messing around with OM, equivalent position etc anymore. Makes it easier
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