Escape Route
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Escape Route
Hi all
I have the following question.
If you are flying at FL 330 and your Grid MORA is FL220 and your drift down is FL180. What would you do? You have an engine failure.
I think that I would have to descend according to the MEA as escape route.
What do you think?
I have the following question.
If you are flying at FL 330 and your Grid MORA is FL220 and your drift down is FL180. What would you do? You have an engine failure.
I think that I would have to descend according to the MEA as escape route.
What do you think?
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Hello,
First thing,
Before dispatching your aircraft, you must ensure 1#out ok throughout the flight ! Otherwise, no go or an alternative must be found.
This is the regulation.
Concerning your question, where have you found a min alt of 22000ft ? Not over Europe I guess... Nevertheless,
Second, you must indeed respect the minimum grid altitude or MEA etc... (this taking into account low qnh or low temperature affects on your altimetry.)
Do not forget, you will have to descend if you are high but it will take a certain distance/time before you reach your recovery altitude. (drift down).
The remaining engine is at MCT ! you won't descend like a brick at your best glide speed ok ?
By that time, hopefully you have decided on a good track considering terrain and you will be above your min altitudes.
Good drift !
Flyer146
First thing,
Before dispatching your aircraft, you must ensure 1#out ok throughout the flight ! Otherwise, no go or an alternative must be found.
This is the regulation.
Concerning your question, where have you found a min alt of 22000ft ? Not over Europe I guess... Nevertheless,
Second, you must indeed respect the minimum grid altitude or MEA etc... (this taking into account low qnh or low temperature affects on your altimetry.)
Do not forget, you will have to descend if you are high but it will take a certain distance/time before you reach your recovery altitude. (drift down).
The remaining engine is at MCT ! you won't descend like a brick at your best glide speed ok ?
By that time, hopefully you have decided on a good track considering terrain and you will be above your min altitudes.
Good drift !
Flyer146
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If you are flying at FL 330 and your Grid MORA is FL220 and your drift down is FL180. What would you do? You have an engine failure.
If the loss of an engine is your only worry, no pressurization problems, then even the obstacle strategy initially is OK. You'll certainly pass 40 NM applying even standard strategy for the drift down. The question is what's thereafter?
Funny, those upgrade questions, aren't they? Best of luck commander.
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9g
has a good point...if you are on airways, and the MEA is FL180, you are ok...but stay on published route.
also, if in RADAR contact you could ask what the minimum vectoring altitude is, and if below driftdown alt, request vectors to lower terrain.
there might be ONE controlling obstacle in the grid, requring the higher grid MORA (like one mountain peak at 20,000feet) and you might be fine...
BUT, I always carried VFR charts to supplement IFR charts...to find that one peak.
WHERE are you ? Tibet?
has a good point...if you are on airways, and the MEA is FL180, you are ok...but stay on published route.
also, if in RADAR contact you could ask what the minimum vectoring altitude is, and if below driftdown alt, request vectors to lower terrain.
there might be ONE controlling obstacle in the grid, requring the higher grid MORA (like one mountain peak at 20,000feet) and you might be fine...
BUT, I always carried VFR charts to supplement IFR charts...to find that one peak.
WHERE are you ? Tibet?
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My previous operator had a Enroute Terrain Clearance Program you followed that was part of the flight plan if the route had sections above the SE ceiling.
It was something along the lines of "if before VOR ABC, turn around, if after VOR ABC, but before XYZ, go to MNO, if after XYZ, continue."
It was something along the lines of "if before VOR ABC, turn around, if after VOR ABC, but before XYZ, go to MNO, if after XYZ, continue."
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@gameover
generally, your driftdown distance would be able to cope with terrain. Speaking for the 73 it really is a large distance.
However in case of emergency descent it becomes an entirely different story, in this case you might need an escape route if you fly over high terrain.
generally, your driftdown distance would be able to cope with terrain. Speaking for the 73 it really is a large distance.
However in case of emergency descent it becomes an entirely different story, in this case you might need an escape route if you fly over high terrain.
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If you are flying at FL 330 and your Grid MORA is FL220 and your drift down is FL180. What would you do? You have an engine failure.
PM
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guppy...finding vfr charts for domestic US flying isn't too hard...and I know by heart where the high terrain is in the lower 48 (peaks around 15000' Mt whitney) Use WAC charts instead of sectionals.
PS...if you face this real problem you might consider the time honored 180degree turn or turn to a lower , adjactent, grid mora
PS...if you face this real problem you might consider the time honored 180degree turn or turn to a lower , adjactent, grid mora
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The maximum one-eng out altitude is FL180?
From the start of the drift down till the end you will burn a lot of fuel (remaining engine/s at MCT) and will take a long time (an hour or so from the typical cruising levels).
So probably your ceiling will be better at the end of it, but I don't know if as much as 4,000 ft.
If unable, either a decision point or an escape route must have been planed so you don't take any chances. I have seen special charts with such points and escape routes.
There are many places in the world with such MEAs. The Andes mountain range and the himalayas come to my mind.
From the start of the drift down till the end you will burn a lot of fuel (remaining engine/s at MCT) and will take a long time (an hour or so from the typical cruising levels).
So probably your ceiling will be better at the end of it, but I don't know if as much as 4,000 ft.
If unable, either a decision point or an escape route must have been planed so you don't take any chances. I have seen special charts with such points and escape routes.
There are many places in the world with such MEAs. The Andes mountain range and the himalayas come to my mind.
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What is your minimum en-route altitude? If that is, temperature corrected, less than 18,000' you shouldn't be there in the first place.
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So every time we fly ETOPS with the planned ETOPS diversion flight time of up to 240 minutes at 10000ft SE we shouldn't be there?
...Grid MORA is FL220 and your drift down is FL180. What would you do?
PM
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@ gameover,
Lot of posts, but regarding your question, driftdown in a 73 or airbus once again is not such a big deal!
law states that if your SE ceiling is less than the route mea or grid mora, whatever you name it you have to have a driftdown procedure.
Generally speaking for the above mentioned types it is just a dispatch exercise. the SE driftdown rate and speed will allow you to descend clear of all terrain in almost all places I can think of.
For example, the 73 will SE driftdown at approx 300 to 500 fpm. given an speed of 5 to 6 miles per hour it would take you close to 132 miles to descend from FL330 to FL 220 in worst case scenario!!! Enough to cover almost all places in the world. That is not what escape routes are for.
Escape routes come into effect for emergency descents, even in the alps this can be an issue. the 73 has pax oxygen for 12 minutes. You have to be able to descent to 14.000 in 12 minutes. With an average speed of 6 miles pm you have to be able to descent to 14.000 within 72 miles, can be done over the highest parts of the Alps but you have to know where you are at, some other places in the world this may be an issue, hence the escape routes.
Hopes this helps
Lot of posts, but regarding your question, driftdown in a 73 or airbus once again is not such a big deal!
law states that if your SE ceiling is less than the route mea or grid mora, whatever you name it you have to have a driftdown procedure.
Generally speaking for the above mentioned types it is just a dispatch exercise. the SE driftdown rate and speed will allow you to descend clear of all terrain in almost all places I can think of.
For example, the 73 will SE driftdown at approx 300 to 500 fpm. given an speed of 5 to 6 miles per hour it would take you close to 132 miles to descend from FL330 to FL 220 in worst case scenario!!! Enough to cover almost all places in the world. That is not what escape routes are for.
Escape routes come into effect for emergency descents, even in the alps this can be an issue. the 73 has pax oxygen for 12 minutes. You have to be able to descent to 14.000 in 12 minutes. With an average speed of 6 miles pm you have to be able to descent to 14.000 within 72 miles, can be done over the highest parts of the Alps but you have to know where you are at, some other places in the world this may be an issue, hence the escape routes.
Hopes this helps
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Grid MORA is FL220 and your drift down is FL180. What would you do? You have an engine failure.
set your Radar to ON with Antenna at 7 deg down.
Radar distance circles will correspond to your Height above Terrain
for example,all inside of a 10 NM circle is dark
means you are 10 000 feet above Terrain
PS
You will see all terrain from -7 deg to UP.
Keep dark area above 5 NM (5000') never below 2.5
Try it when you are VMC for a start..
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...no worries coz I couldn't care less about MSA while being en-route.
PM
From the start of the drift down till the end you will burn a lot of fuel (remaining engine/s at MCT) and will take a long time (an hour or so from the typical cruising levels).
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My dear PM you won't impress me by lowering your social skills but by, at least, having the courtesy to learn the definitions and their meanings in particular the FAA once. See please what MSA stands for and when it's applicable and where it's depicted. For the en-route portion of the flight I care about MEA, MOCA, MORA and GRID MORA. Hope you'll be little more thorough next time you jump the gun coz I'd fail the oral portion of your LC due to lack of basic terms understanding.
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The interviewer didnīt say which area of the world or airspace, no details about it.
I think that he wanted to see your knowledge developing different answeres and possibilities...off route, not, etc
It was also a question to get a position of Captain.
I was confusing the meaning, the concept of Escape Route. Thanks everybody for your help.
Regarding the answer...Also, do not be in a rush because the plane will not descend until the plane speed has reached Driftdown speed as the target. So , you would have time to contact ATC and declare emergency before starting your descent, bearing in mind you could be in a Reduced Vertical Separation Minimum airspace...so many scenarios, so that ATC would have time to separate traffics...
Have nice flights
I think that he wanted to see your knowledge developing different answeres and possibilities...off route, not, etc
It was also a question to get a position of Captain.
I was confusing the meaning, the concept of Escape Route. Thanks everybody for your help.
Regarding the answer...Also, do not be in a rush because the plane will not descend until the plane speed has reached Driftdown speed as the target. So , you would have time to contact ATC and declare emergency before starting your descent, bearing in mind you could be in a Reduced Vertical Separation Minimum airspace...so many scenarios, so that ATC would have time to separate traffics...
Have nice flights
Last edited by GAMEOVER; 28th Feb 2011 at 18:11.