QANTAS A380 Uncontained failure.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Philippines
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My experience has and is in the "suck-squeeze-bang-blow" engines(in other words Diesels)
Compared to diesel engines, the gas turbine manufacturers are pretty much "in-house" when it comes to self sufficiency in component manufacturing.
Of course there are outside specialist suppliers, but compared to my industry they do pretty well.
Only about 30-40% of a diesel engine is manufactured by the brand name.
Pistons,bearings,valves, fuel injectors, governors, turbo-chargers, coolers and so-on are all sourced from specialist suppliers.
Compared to diesel engines, the gas turbine manufacturers are pretty much "in-house" when it comes to self sufficiency in component manufacturing.
Of course there are outside specialist suppliers, but compared to my industry they do pretty well.
Only about 30-40% of a diesel engine is manufactured by the brand name.
Pistons,bearings,valves, fuel injectors, governors, turbo-chargers, coolers and so-on are all sourced from specialist suppliers.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 82
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Raw forgings come from specialty shops; configuration plumbing and valves etc. likewise. GE bought fuel controls for some engines from Hamilton Standard, then part of United Technologies, a major competitor (think P&W).
But sometimes the engine builder buys the supplier's business, in order to exercise more control.
But sometimes the engine builder buys the supplier's business, in order to exercise more control.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Middle America
Age: 84
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Barit1, you are correct, some very critical components are bought from speciality suppliers, forgings, from which discs, casings and engine mounts are machined from, investment castings from which structural components and turbine airfoils are produced and no doubt a few other more critical components from other processes. At one time, all three engine manufacturers had investment casting foundries, but I think only Rolls Royce has a production facility today.
There has been some purchases of independent suppliers by the engine manufacturers where the technology knowhow meshes well with the technology thrust of the engine company, such as composites for example.
There has been some purchases of independent suppliers by the engine manufacturers where the technology knowhow meshes well with the technology thrust of the engine company, such as composites for example.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Durham
Posts: 483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The spline wear, fretting, increases exponentially with time. The broken oil feed pipe did us a favour and we were lucky. I am sad the CEO of RR is leaving in March. He has been a good man. I remember well the events of 1971..in the early part of February that year a few of us in the sixth form thought the shares of RR would be a "good thing to buy"
Last edited by DERG; 17th Feb 2011 at 10:40.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Birmingham, England (sometimes)
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Supplies, supplies...
Barit 1,
for what it's worth the Trent 900 engine control is also made by Hamilton Standard but the software is done pretty much in house.
for what it's worth the Trent 900 engine control is also made by Hamilton Standard but the software is done pretty much in house.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: S 51 N
Age: 84
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
good news
Just found this on the FlightGlobal site. I think that is really good news!!
Qantas's damaged A380 to return to service this year
Qantas's damaged A380 to return to service this year
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: S 51 N
Age: 84
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bolty McBolt
That is the article I referred to in my previous message:
High thrust Trent 900s limited to 75 flight cycles: Qantas
Thanks to Turbine D that did the search and digging for the right link.
High thrust Trent 900s limited to 75 flight cycles: Qantas
Thanks to Turbine D that did the search and digging for the right link.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Durham
Posts: 483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Someone can't add up
"Joyce says the cost to repair VH-OQA, the first A380 delivered to Qantas, will exceed A$100m (US$99.8m). Insurance and contractual agreements with Rolls-Royce will cover the repairs. Qantas says A380 disruptions had a $55m cost impact in the first half of its financial year ended 31 December. The carrier estimates a further $25m impact in the second half of the year."
These numbers differ significantly from the cost as estimated in the official statement by RR. Looks like the Bayesian Academics have migrated to the accounts department, probably the only place where they feel safe.
Looking ahead to the end of March, the new CEO John Rishton will replace Sir John Rose. Both these men were social science graduates and there is no guarantee that John Rishton will keep the Bayesians where they belong: on the staff of THE RACING POST.
I remember Feb 1971 well enough:
"The RB211 demanded a huge step in technology within a very short timescale a double challenge for which Rolls-Royce was ill-prepared," Sir Ralph Robins, the former Rolls chief executive, said in its centenary lecture in 2005. "One very important lesson emerged from the early problems with this engine the fact that major, new, advanced engine programmes can only be successful if they are well-founded on previously demonstrated technologies. That, sadly, was far from the case at the start of the RB211 programme."
Note well: "previously demonstrated technology"
viz. Newtonian mechanics..been around since 1680CE
as taught to 16 year old sea cadets:
http://compass.seacadets.org/pdf/nrtc/fn/14104_ch6.pdf
.
These numbers differ significantly from the cost as estimated in the official statement by RR. Looks like the Bayesian Academics have migrated to the accounts department, probably the only place where they feel safe.
Looking ahead to the end of March, the new CEO John Rishton will replace Sir John Rose. Both these men were social science graduates and there is no guarantee that John Rishton will keep the Bayesians where they belong: on the staff of THE RACING POST.
I remember Feb 1971 well enough:
"The RB211 demanded a huge step in technology within a very short timescale a double challenge for which Rolls-Royce was ill-prepared," Sir Ralph Robins, the former Rolls chief executive, said in its centenary lecture in 2005. "One very important lesson emerged from the early problems with this engine the fact that major, new, advanced engine programmes can only be successful if they are well-founded on previously demonstrated technologies. That, sadly, was far from the case at the start of the RB211 programme."
Note well: "previously demonstrated technology"
viz. Newtonian mechanics..been around since 1680CE
as taught to 16 year old sea cadets:
http://compass.seacadets.org/pdf/nrtc/fn/14104_ch6.pdf
.
Last edited by DERG; 17th Feb 2011 at 11:16. Reason: additional
Guest
Posts: n/a
VnV2178B
With respect, the Controls systems are built by Hamilton Sundstrand, not Standard.
They are a division of UTC.
The "Oil Stub Pipe" was built by Rolls Royce.
Hamilton Sundstrand pitches themselves as "Tip To Tail" supplier for the A380.
DEP
For my "U" boat friend.
This Plug is located on the top of the Channel "B" module of the EEC. It is restrained by a "Lanyard" attached to the Engine's Fancase.
The DEP is purpose built to contain Data individualized for the specific powerplant to which it is attached. It is a Plug and Housing that contains a dual channel memory device called EEPROMS. One each is dedicated to a Channel of the EEC.
Each EEPROM has identical Data, to wit:
The Engine Serial Number, The Engine Ratings Selection, The TPR and THRUST TRIM Relationship, EGT TRIM, and Idle Trim.
The EEC, as you know, is programmed with ALL Engine Ratings. The DEP discrete DATA allows the EEC to select from its memory the applicable ratings for the aircraft in question.
TPR TRIM is adduced in engine test to report to the aircraft whilst in flight identical data for all engines across the wing. It obviously calibrates Engine Thrust (TRIM) tailored to the other engines on the wing as well. The DEP, then, is responsible for commanding identical settings from each engine on cockpit selections.
EGT TRIM is commanded from DATA programmed during Rolls Royce type test.
This limits EGT to pre-Programmed values, aligned with Cockpit reads.
IDLE TRIM is managed by the EEC, whether minimum or Approach, and it is The DEP that controls EEC's control limits.
EEPROM. Electrically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory
With respect, the Controls systems are built by Hamilton Sundstrand, not Standard.
They are a division of UTC.
The "Oil Stub Pipe" was built by Rolls Royce.
Hamilton Sundstrand pitches themselves as "Tip To Tail" supplier for the A380.
DEP
For my "U" boat friend.
This Plug is located on the top of the Channel "B" module of the EEC. It is restrained by a "Lanyard" attached to the Engine's Fancase.
The DEP is purpose built to contain Data individualized for the specific powerplant to which it is attached. It is a Plug and Housing that contains a dual channel memory device called EEPROMS. One each is dedicated to a Channel of the EEC.
Each EEPROM has identical Data, to wit:
The Engine Serial Number, The Engine Ratings Selection, The TPR and THRUST TRIM Relationship, EGT TRIM, and Idle Trim.
The EEC, as you know, is programmed with ALL Engine Ratings. The DEP discrete DATA allows the EEC to select from its memory the applicable ratings for the aircraft in question.
TPR TRIM is adduced in engine test to report to the aircraft whilst in flight identical data for all engines across the wing. It obviously calibrates Engine Thrust (TRIM) tailored to the other engines on the wing as well. The DEP, then, is responsible for commanding identical settings from each engine on cockpit selections.
EGT TRIM is commanded from DATA programmed during Rolls Royce type test.
This limits EGT to pre-Programmed values, aligned with Cockpit reads.
IDLE TRIM is managed by the EEC, whether minimum or Approach, and it is The DEP that controls EEC's control limits.
EEPROM. Electrically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Toulouse area, France
Age: 93
Posts: 435
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RB211 "early problems"
Sorry - the machine had a bit of a wobbly, so I forgot the Post No. (short term memory on the blink).
Ref early RB211 problems: I think RR's chief was referring to the company's rush to carbon fibre fan blades which caused vast embarrassment when sandy environments (which don't exist in Derby or Barnoldswick) caused unexpected erosion. While Lockheed had been urging a titanium back-up, inventing the sophisticated vacuum forging/diffusion bonding process to get weight down took lots of time ... as did the company's subsequent bankruptcy and nationalisation.
I don't think the 3-shaft layout was the cause - apart from needing a light-weight fan to keep the overall weight down.
Years later, GE, for the "90", did the CFRP thing right, if course ...
Ref early RB211 problems: I think RR's chief was referring to the company's rush to carbon fibre fan blades which caused vast embarrassment when sandy environments (which don't exist in Derby or Barnoldswick) caused unexpected erosion. While Lockheed had been urging a titanium back-up, inventing the sophisticated vacuum forging/diffusion bonding process to get weight down took lots of time ... as did the company's subsequent bankruptcy and nationalisation.
I don't think the 3-shaft layout was the cause - apart from needing a light-weight fan to keep the overall weight down.
Years later, GE, for the "90", did the CFRP thing right, if course ...
Last edited by Jig Peter; 17th Feb 2011 at 15:33. Reason: Wrong addressee first time
when sandy environments (which don't exist in Derby or Barnoldswick) caused unexpected erosion
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Toulouse area, France
Age: 93
Posts: 435
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To Bearfoil & Ken Parry
1) I woz wrong about sand - bird-strikes it was indeed: memory again ..
2) I think the GE solution is CFRP with titanium leading edges to do the right thing with birds ...
2) I think the GE solution is CFRP with titanium leading edges to do the right thing with birds ...
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Middle America
Age: 84
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is a report I found (pdf.file) that gives some status and information on the composite GE90 fan blades. They are doing quite well, more current data indicates only 17 fan blades have required removal from service for repairs, mainly bird strike incidents.
http://www.niar.wichita.edu/NIARWork...id=110&mid=599 -
http://www.niar.wichita.edu/NIARWork...id=110&mid=599 -
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 3,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Note 'current data' is may 2007, lot more GE 90-115's in service now. Tips were cropped a few years ago due to rubbing issues, thereby losing some efficiency. To be expected when you look at physical size of engine. Changed 4 in one hit due to fod damage a couple of years ago . Very expensive according to paperwork , but cant remember figure.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qantas's damaged A380 to return to service this year