Concorde question
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Europe
Age: 88
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The ORIGINAL design for the reheat was done by SNECMA, but due to them getting into all sorts of trouble with the fuel injection system and flame stabilisation, Rolls-Royce baled them out, and it became a Rolls-Royce/ SNECMA design.
ref heritageconcorde.com
Does anyone have any details on the 'joint' development alluded to above?
ref heritageconcorde.com
Does anyone have any details on the 'joint' development alluded to above?
The problem apparently was that flame stabilisation operating in "contingency" rating was sensitive to the point that every engine had to be checked, so there was a lot of engine plus reheat testing, most of which was done at Patchway. The solution was addition of some form of 'spike' at various points on the spray bar (my informant wasn't very specific). It sounded like a sort of vortex generator cum chine that gave the flame somewhere to latch onto. The development process was, as you suggested, a joint activity.
PJ2 reminds us of the way the airframes of other a/c queuing for take-off would resonate as Concorde departed. Whether it was the responsibility of SNECMA or Rolls Royce (or even Bristol Siddeley? ), the reheat was certain to set off a random sprinkling of car alarms on the airfield, which used to make my day when lucky enough to be returning to the car park around midday at LHR.
Even without reheat, however, the engine had a distinctly military sound - quite unlike other civil turbojets I can remember. The sound of it in the descent at about 4000ft over my house at 5 pm daily was unmistakeable. On the approach, if you weren't expecting it, it could be quite unnerving. One night in the late 1970s, during a long car journey, I stopped for a call of nature at a well-known public house near Hatton Cross (about a mile from touchdown on LHR 27L). It was pitch dark, and I decided that the hedge at the side of the car park would be a suitable venue. Never having heard Concorde on the approach before, I became increasingly nervous as the sound, initially unidentified, got progressively louder. And then the landing lights were switched on...
Even without reheat, however, the engine had a distinctly military sound - quite unlike other civil turbojets I can remember. The sound of it in the descent at about 4000ft over my house at 5 pm daily was unmistakeable. On the approach, if you weren't expecting it, it could be quite unnerving. One night in the late 1970s, during a long car journey, I stopped for a call of nature at a well-known public house near Hatton Cross (about a mile from touchdown on LHR 27L). It was pitch dark, and I decided that the hedge at the side of the car park would be a suitable venue. Never having heard Concorde on the approach before, I became increasingly nervous as the sound, initially unidentified, got progressively louder. And then the landing lights were switched on...
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ontario
Age: 74
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
New Concorde book
Just out ..
CONCORDE - A Designer's Life by Ted Talbot
I've just found an earlier pprune post educating me on the author
QUOTE]If I may, I would now like to mention the 'some oil lamps and diesel oil' story. This is a true story told to me by Dr Ted Talbot, the father of the Concorde Intake, brilliant aerodynamicist and all round amazing gentleman.[/QUOTE]
Can't wait for it to arrive in my mail box.
CONCORDE - A Designer's Life by Ted Talbot
I've just found an earlier pprune post educating me on the author
QUOTE]If I may, I would now like to mention the 'some oil lamps and diesel oil' story. This is a true story told to me by Dr Ted Talbot, the father of the Concorde Intake, brilliant aerodynamicist and all round amazing gentleman.[/QUOTE]
Can't wait for it to arrive in my mail box.
Last edited by peter kent; 17th Oct 2013 at 01:45. Reason: clarification
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Europe
Age: 88
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peter
I've just started reading it, and it's pure Ted (and Ann)
Do buy it - it is probably the most amusing (and human) book on Concorde you will ever read. Best seven quids worth I have spent for a long time.
Update: I have now finished it - I couldn't put it down. Definitely autobiographical, but worth buying for the Concorde bits alone. Maybe I'm biased as I share many of his memories. Perhaps UK readers will appreciate the non-Concorde bits more.
I've just started reading it, and it's pure Ted (and Ann)
Do buy it - it is probably the most amusing (and human) book on Concorde you will ever read. Best seven quids worth I have spent for a long time.
Update: I have now finished it - I couldn't put it down. Definitely autobiographical, but worth buying for the Concorde bits alone. Maybe I'm biased as I share many of his memories. Perhaps UK readers will appreciate the non-Concorde bits more.
Last edited by CliveL; 17th Oct 2013 at 18:46. Reason: update
To my eternal regret, I never had a chance to get close to the old girl in her "lifetime", but I'll never forget the day she overflew my Mum's house at what can't have been more than a couple of thousand feet on her way back from Farnborough.
(The rest of the museum isn't bad either - a good day out).
I wondered if any Concorde flight crew had a favourite airframe and why? I understand Alpha Foxtrot was somewhat lighter than her sisters. Maybe that made for a sportier option?
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: East of Watford
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From another thread:
BA 2 JFK-LHR 23.08.1992
Could I please ask if someone can tell me which aircraft flew this flight?
The Captain was Stack Butterley. Any other information concerning the other flight deck crew would be gratefully received.
Many thanks in advance.
Could I please ask if someone can tell me which aircraft flew this flight?
The Captain was Stack Butterley. Any other information concerning the other flight deck crew would be gratefully received.
Many thanks in advance.
Many years ago, I'd flown into Heathrow (after a horrible flight - a 6+ hour delay after pushback at JFK due to weather). I was in line to pick up my rental car when suddenly there was this horrendous noise - a "can't hear yourself think" noise. The strange part was no one else even seemed to notice . I turned and looked outside, and there was a Concord on it's takeoff run in full afterburner . It was the only time I was able to see a Concord moving under it's own power .
No idea what tail number it is, but there is a Concord at the Seattle Museum of Flight. First time I walked inside I was stunned at how small it was. The windows are tiny, and the seats would not appear out-of-place in economy on todays international flights. The cockpit is blocked off with clear Plexiglas, but looked decidedly primitive by todays (or even 1980's) standards. No doubt the cabin service was top notch, and there is definitely a luxury in making a six hour flight in two hours. But it's also not hard to understand why it wasn't a commercial success .
But I sure wish I'd had the opportunity to fly on one
No idea what tail number it is, but there is a Concord at the Seattle Museum of Flight. First time I walked inside I was stunned at how small it was. The windows are tiny, and the seats would not appear out-of-place in economy on todays international flights. The cockpit is blocked off with clear Plexiglas, but looked decidedly primitive by todays (or even 1980's) standards. No doubt the cabin service was top notch, and there is definitely a luxury in making a six hour flight in two hours. But it's also not hard to understand why it wasn't a commercial success .
But I sure wish I'd had the opportunity to fly on one
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: California
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G-BOAG lives in Seattle now. And so you know it's Concorde with an " e". Very important.
I flew on G-BOAG, BA 2 JFK- LHR, 6 months before the program was shut down in 2003. The experience is hard to describe and only a Concorde fan would appreciate it anyway.
I flew on G-BOAG, BA 2 JFK- LHR, 6 months before the program was shut down in 2003. The experience is hard to describe and only a Concorde fan would appreciate it anyway.
And so you know it's Concorde with an " e". Very important.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Age: 58
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The windows are tiny
cockpit is blocked off with clear Plexiglas, but looked decidedly primitive by todays (or even 1980's) standards
There's not a lot of space for the necessary controls in the front of a pointy aeroplane, and this was done in era when the appearance of the flt deck was inconsequential compared to its efficiency, utility and safety. It's only from the beige cockpit Boeings and onwards that the trend has emerged to for all these swoopy trim panels to be fitted for cosmetic reasons.
As for commercial failure - that may be true for the constructors but I can assure you that there's no way BA would have been flying them if they didn't contribute to the bottom line, let alone invest in the return to service programme.
It always pays to remember the context of operation of this machine when making comparisons with conventional aircraft,as that's what drove much of the design.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 3,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No idea what tail number it is, but there is a Concord at the Seattle Museum of Flight. First time I walked inside I was stunned at how small it was. The windows are tiny, and the seats would not appear out-of-place in economy on todays international flights. The cockpit is blocked off with clear Plexiglas, but looked decidedly primitive by todays (or even 1980's) standards. No doubt the cabin service was top notch, and there is definitely a luxury in making a six hour flight in two hours. But it's also not hard to understand why it wasn't a commercial success...
Ergonomically speaking, both engineers and pilots of the era write of Concorde's flight deck being the best possible balance of form and function available at the time - sure it looks cluttered to the modern eye, but everything was placed in a logical manner and the sheer number of systems used in the aircraft made the accessibility of all that information a basic requirement. It's worth bearing in mind that even those not particularly well-disposed to Airbus will grudgingly admit that the flight deck ergonomics on those types are extremely good - and a lot of the lessons learned were from cramming all that information into Concorde's limited space.
As for the cabin, again appearances are deceptive - I have sat in one of those seats and they are extremely comfortable for the size. Also one must bear in mind that unlike the subsonic Atlantic crossings, these were happening in about 3 hours - so no need to be particularly wide or convert into a bed like we see in Business and First today - not to mention less chance of a queue for the WC!
I have to thank EXWOK for explaining the windows - but I'll add the more prosaic reason that you don't need a particularly large window to see the curvature of the Earth in all its splendour - which is for the most part all you'd be seeing during the flight!
[EDIT : I should also confirm that EXWOK is also correct in stating that BA had Concorde turning a profit from the early-'80s onward, and it took a combination of a financial downturn and the fallout from the terrorist attacks of September 2001 to end the service.
While Concorde herself never recouped the development money granted by the governments of the UK and France, the infrastructure and R&D her development put in place paved the way for the Airbus project which, as we know, ended up becoming a leading player in airliner design and manufacture in the West. ]
Last edited by DozyWannabe; 18th Oct 2013 at 17:34.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Europe
Age: 88
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dozy
Yeah, well when we put a digital computer to generate the AICS laws that was NEW man!
Again, no digital multifunction displays on offer in those days
Errrr no, I don't think so. Concorde's flight deck was done at Filton and we had no involvement in the Airbus designs in that area.
Exwok's remark is not quite right IIRC. Certainly the window size was dictated by pressurisation failure, but one couldn't maintain cabin pressure with two windows failed - the design case was to get to a breathable altitude before you killed too many passengers! Also, there is very little to see when you have a delta wing under you.
Ummm - most participants reckoned that the Concorde infrastructure showed the way not to do it, and besides the early Airbuses were developed in parallel with the later stages of Concorde development. You have a point where R&D is concerned though - several technologies developed for Concorde found their way onto the subsonic fleet, not the least being the probability approach to system certification.
Even when Concorde entered production, the most complex digital displays available to aviation were of the 7-segment LED type (as used in the Apollo Guidance Computer), and they were both wildly expensive and of limited use.
Ergonomically speaking, both engineers and pilots of the era write of Concorde's flight deck being the best possible balance of form and function available at the time - sure it looks cluttered to the modern eye,
It's worth bearing in mind that even those not particularly well-disposed to Airbus will grudgingly admit that the flight deck ergonomics on those types are extremely good - and a lot of the lessons learned were from cramming all that information into Concorde's limited space.
I have to thank EXWOK for explaining the windows - but I'll add the more prosaic reason that you don't need a particularly large window to see the curvature of the Earth in all its splendour - which is for the most part all you'd be seeing during the flight!
While Concorde herself never recouped the development money granted by the governments of the UK and France, the infrastructure and R&D her development put in place paved the way for the Airbus project
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 3,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Clive - nice to see you!
I was thinking more "indirectly" - in general UK/Euro flight deck layouts were more in line with improving ergonomics than those on the other side of the pond for a long time. Later work may not have been done at Filton as Concorde's was, but the Airbus folk would have been foolish in the extreme not to use the fundamental principles as a basis for that work!
Hence the catch-all term "paved the way" - whereby lessons in how not to do it are as useful as those which were a positive example!
Ummm - most participants reckoned that the Concorde infrastructure showed the way not to do it.
Last edited by DozyWannabe; 18th Oct 2013 at 18:27.
BA was able to make money on Concorde as in positive cash flow. But they were basically given the airplanes. The commercial failure aspect comes from the simple fact that no one wanted them to build any more (what I've heard is that at least one production Concorde was built but never put into service - basically becoming a donor for spares - not sure if that's true). I also suspect it was too much of a point design - it didn't have the range to be useful in the Pacific.
If BA (and Air France) honestly thought Concorde was a profit center (rather than brand prestige), they would have wanted more .
BTW, my comments about the flight deck were not intended as criticism - no doubt it was state of the art when it was designed. I was just commenting on how much things have changed since then.
I don't mean to dispute that the Concorde was an incredible airplane and engineering achievement. Just saying that it never really had a chance to be successful. The same thing would have applied to the Boeing SST if it hadn't been cancelled (I knew a guy that worked on the Boeing SST inlet control system - talk about complex ). Cancelling the SST is probably the best thing that ever happened to Boeing - it likely would have bankrupted the company.
If BA (and Air France) honestly thought Concorde was a profit center (rather than brand prestige), they would have wanted more .
BTW, my comments about the flight deck were not intended as criticism - no doubt it was state of the art when it was designed. I was just commenting on how much things have changed since then.
I don't mean to dispute that the Concorde was an incredible airplane and engineering achievement. Just saying that it never really had a chance to be successful. The same thing would have applied to the Boeing SST if it hadn't been cancelled (I knew a guy that worked on the Boeing SST inlet control system - talk about complex ). Cancelling the SST is probably the best thing that ever happened to Boeing - it likely would have bankrupted the company.
Last edited by tdracer; 18th Oct 2013 at 21:01.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 3,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA was able to make money on Concorde as in positive cash flow. But they were basically given the airplanes. The commercial failure aspect comes from the simple fact that no one wanted them to build any more (what I've heard is that at least one production Concorde was built but never put into service - basically becoming a donor for spares - not sure if that's true).
I also suspect it was too much of a point design - it didn't have the range to be useful in the Pacific.
CONCORDE SST : CONCORDE B
If BA (and Air France) honestly thought Concorde was a profit center (rather than brand prestige), they would have wanted more .
The same thing would have applied to the Boeing SST if it hadn't been cancelled (I knew a guy that worked on the Boeing SST inlet control system - talk about complex ). Cancelling the SST is probably the best thing that ever happened to Boeing - it likely would have bankrupted the company.
Last edited by DozyWannabe; 18th Oct 2013 at 22:02.
The Concorde and Boeing SST business cases were built on a couple flawed assumptions.
First, jet fuel would remain dirt cheap and the higher fuel burn of supersonic travel not contribute significantly to cost of operation - which was blown out of the water by the first Arab oil embargo.
Second, that the majority of demand for air travel would remain for the 'premium' product - basically that the majority of people would happily pay a premium to get there faster. This assumption applied to most people who flew on jets in the 1960's - either business travelers or well to do people that weren't that worried about what it cost.
Reality was it went the opposite direction - a shift that started with the 747 and other widebodies. The economies of the wide body aircraft lowered the cost of air travel to the 'everybody' level. Suddenly there was a whole new class of air traveler - people for whom an extra $100 airfare meant they just wouldn't go, never mind that they'd get there in half the time. In short, they didn't foresee air travel becoming just another commodity - the low cost trend that continues today.
The reality was, both the Concorde and the SST needed to sell hundreds of copies to even begin to justify the development costs. The evolution of air travel into a low cost commodity, combined with the rising costs of jet fuel, insured that would never happen.
First, jet fuel would remain dirt cheap and the higher fuel burn of supersonic travel not contribute significantly to cost of operation - which was blown out of the water by the first Arab oil embargo.
Second, that the majority of demand for air travel would remain for the 'premium' product - basically that the majority of people would happily pay a premium to get there faster. This assumption applied to most people who flew on jets in the 1960's - either business travelers or well to do people that weren't that worried about what it cost.
Reality was it went the opposite direction - a shift that started with the 747 and other widebodies. The economies of the wide body aircraft lowered the cost of air travel to the 'everybody' level. Suddenly there was a whole new class of air traveler - people for whom an extra $100 airfare meant they just wouldn't go, never mind that they'd get there in half the time. In short, they didn't foresee air travel becoming just another commodity - the low cost trend that continues today.
The reality was, both the Concorde and the SST needed to sell hundreds of copies to even begin to justify the development costs. The evolution of air travel into a low cost commodity, combined with the rising costs of jet fuel, insured that would never happen.
Last edited by tdracer; 19th Oct 2013 at 00:18. Reason: edited to fix typos
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 3,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Concorde and Boeing SST business cases were built on a couple flawed assumptions.
First, jet fuel would remain dirt cheap and the higher fuel burn of supersonic travel not contribute significantly to cost of operation - which was blown out of the water by the first Arab oil embargo.
First, jet fuel would remain dirt cheap and the higher fuel burn of supersonic travel not contribute significantly to cost of operation - which was blown out of the water by the first Arab oil embargo.
Second, that the majority of demand for air travel would remain for the 'premium' product - basically that the majority of people would happily pay a premium to get there faster. This assumption applied to most people who flew on jets in the 1960's - either business travelers or well to do people that weren't that worried about what it cost.
Reality was it went the opposite direction - a shift that started with the 747 and other widebodies. The economies of the wide body aircraft lowered the cost of air travel to the 'everybody' level. Suddenly there was a whole new class of air traveler - people for whom an extra $100 airfare meant they just wouldn't go, never mind that they'd get there in half the time. In short, they didn't foresee air travel becoming just another commodity - the low cost trend that continues today.
The reality was, both the Concorde and the SST needed to sell hundreds of copies to even begin to justify the development costs. The evolution of air travel into a low cost commodity, combined with the rising costs of jet fuel, insured that would never happen.
It seems to me that if Concorde "failed," it's only because it did not usher in an era of supersonic flight. The significance of airplanes like the DC-3 and the 707 isn't so much that they were great airplanes (though they may have been), but that they were copied and improved upon. That didn't happen with Concorde, and I think the only reason can be that the time just hadn't come for supersonic passenger flight. I guess we'll see if it ever does.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: australia
Age: 48
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've never seen it fly or even static. Hopefully one day. Would be a huge thrill. Thank goodness for youtube. And I'd pay more to halve the time to travel by aircraft if I could!
Maybe, just maybe, the Concorde was so far ahead of its time nobody has caught up to it yet?
One awesome aircfraft.
Maybe, just maybe, the Concorde was so far ahead of its time nobody has caught up to it yet?
One awesome aircfraft.