Concorde question
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Differences between ordered Airframes
I had a guy on a tour at MAN last week who asked a question - what were the differences between the BA Concordes and the French ones ?
Broadening it out a bit this was touched on earlier in the thread with the APU for Iran discussion and a bit about AF & AG being slightly different.
Is there a definitive list anywhere of what each of the airlines wanted ?
Broadening it out a bit this was touched on earlier in the thread with the APU for Iran discussion and a bit about AF & AG being slightly different.
Is there a definitive list anywhere of what each of the airlines wanted ?
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Just thought I'd drop by and see what was happening on this thread........
My best personal experience of a quick t/round was a tech stop at SMA which we turned around in 45mins. Fuelling was taking place for about 30 of that. AF used to tech stop SMA on the way to GIG, I believe, so the station had some Conc experience.
As for the differences between AF and BA a/c I think most have been dealt with before. AG stood out in BA as a partly 'French' hull; the stuff noticed by pilots was generally:
NiCd main batts, with slight differences to the DC system (no SSB I recall).
No ability for flt crew to 'steal' pax O2.
Perspex flip up visual level on the glareshield instead of open metal construction. Sounds trivial, but I hated it!
No annunciation of DTG to next INS WPT on HSI unless in NAV mode (or was it TRUE?)
Undercarriage monitor not fitted.
Different audio select panels - get this: 6 a/c in the fleet you pushed for TX and pulled for intercom.....AG.......the other way round. Genius.
Probably a lot of other stuff under the skin that I've forgotten.
Allegedly this was representative of the AF fit (certainly as far as the batts/DC) but I can't say for sure. Obviously the cabin fits were very different and over the years the two airlines will have carried out different non-mandatory mods (e.g. the infamous 'cowcatcher' mod).
OAF was a standard BA machine, except that being younger it (like OAG) didn't have the 'crown area' mods done.
All from memory, usual health warnings apply......
My best personal experience of a quick t/round was a tech stop at SMA which we turned around in 45mins. Fuelling was taking place for about 30 of that. AF used to tech stop SMA on the way to GIG, I believe, so the station had some Conc experience.
As for the differences between AF and BA a/c I think most have been dealt with before. AG stood out in BA as a partly 'French' hull; the stuff noticed by pilots was generally:
NiCd main batts, with slight differences to the DC system (no SSB I recall).
No ability for flt crew to 'steal' pax O2.
Perspex flip up visual level on the glareshield instead of open metal construction. Sounds trivial, but I hated it!
No annunciation of DTG to next INS WPT on HSI unless in NAV mode (or was it TRUE?)
Undercarriage monitor not fitted.
Different audio select panels - get this: 6 a/c in the fleet you pushed for TX and pulled for intercom.....AG.......the other way round. Genius.
Probably a lot of other stuff under the skin that I've forgotten.
Allegedly this was representative of the AF fit (certainly as far as the batts/DC) but I can't say for sure. Obviously the cabin fits were very different and over the years the two airlines will have carried out different non-mandatory mods (e.g. the infamous 'cowcatcher' mod).
OAF was a standard BA machine, except that being younger it (like OAG) didn't have the 'crown area' mods done.
All from memory, usual health warnings apply......
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The rear tank on Concorde needed to be full at take off for trim purposes.
As speed increased fuel was transfered forward to the main tanks as fuel was burnt. If you are interested in the complete fuel management for trim I will be happy to oblige.
As speed increased fuel was transfered forward to the main tanks as fuel was burnt. If you are interested in the complete fuel management for trim I will be happy to oblige.
doxeee
...The rear tank on Concorde needed to be full at take off for trim purposes....
No, it didn't, and it wasn't.
...As speed increased fuel was transfered forward to the main tanks...
No, it wasn't. As speed increased fuel was in fact moved rearwards into tank 11.
...if you are interested in the complete fuel management for trim...
I am, but, with respect, either your source of information is incorrect or you have misunderstood it.
...The rear tank on Concorde needed to be full at take off for trim purposes....
No, it didn't, and it wasn't.
...As speed increased fuel was transfered forward to the main tanks...
No, it wasn't. As speed increased fuel was in fact moved rearwards into tank 11.
...if you are interested in the complete fuel management for trim...
I am, but, with respect, either your source of information is incorrect or you have misunderstood it.
Last edited by Bellerophon; 4th Apr 2012 at 23:55.
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Vmo
Last time I logged in someone was asking why the Vmo/Mmo was the way it was, but it seems to have disappeared along with Bellerophon's suggestion that someone else might be able to throw some light on it. This might help.
SORRY - senior moment - this should have been posted on another thread!
To be honest I can't remember exactly why 530 kts was chosen for the supersonic Vmo, but it was probably the best climb speed.
Mmo/Tmo was limited by a combination of intake and structural temperature.
The 'cut-off' in the sloping/530 kts boundary was, if I remember correctly, to avoid a minor aeroelastic problem at the Vd/Md condition one arrived at from that corner.
The variation of Vmo with weight was a device which, when associated with the CG corridor, allowed the aircraft to meet the manoeuvre requirements when flying on half hydraulics.
400 kts CAS gave 0.93M at around 28000 ft if I recall correctly, which was just below drag rise and gave optimum subsonic cruise performance
SORRY - senior moment - this should have been posted on another thread!
To be honest I can't remember exactly why 530 kts was chosen for the supersonic Vmo, but it was probably the best climb speed.
Mmo/Tmo was limited by a combination of intake and structural temperature.
The 'cut-off' in the sloping/530 kts boundary was, if I remember correctly, to avoid a minor aeroelastic problem at the Vd/Md condition one arrived at from that corner.
The variation of Vmo with weight was a device which, when associated with the CG corridor, allowed the aircraft to meet the manoeuvre requirements when flying on half hydraulics.
400 kts CAS gave 0.93M at around 28000 ft if I recall correctly, which was just below drag rise and gave optimum subsonic cruise performance
Last edited by Jetdriver; 20th Apr 2012 at 23:33.
, but great thanks to both Bellerophon and CliveL on sharing their knowlegoe of the Concorde 
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(D)FDR on Concorde
Hi Guys,
first, thank you for this wonderful thread!!!
AFAIK, the FDR of Concorde hasn't been discussed here yet.
What are it's capabilities, i.e. parameters logged, speed, capacity, etc. ?
Where is it located?
Did it survive the Paris crash? If so, did the investigators get useful data from it?
Thanks much in advance.
first, thank you for this wonderful thread!!!
AFAIK, the FDR of Concorde hasn't been discussed here yet.
What are it's capabilities, i.e. parameters logged, speed, capacity, etc. ?
Where is it located?
Did it survive the Paris crash? If so, did the investigators get useful data from it?
Thanks much in advance.
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The FDR is Located in Racks at the Rear of Concorde"s Rear cabin near the emergancy doors.
Which also contain other Boxes such as the Radio Tran-ceivers, ADF receivers and Intake Computers among them which are all coverd over and out of site!
They did survive the Paris Crash from memmory.
Which also contain other Boxes such as the Radio Tran-ceivers, ADF receivers and Intake Computers among them which are all coverd over and out of site!
They did survive the Paris Crash from memmory.
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RE: Debow
In the ITVV documentary, the SFE Roger Bricknell mentioned the selection of debow of #3 engine upon startup on the JFK to LHR leg, due to the downtime of the engine. This essentially delays the heat-up of the turbine shaft in favor of a more evenly temperature distribution.
Why wasn't the debow selected for all the other engine? (Roger explicitly mentioned to not needing to select the other engines for debow)
Forgive me, I'm probably missing something that was mentioned earlier in this great thread.
Why wasn't the debow selected for all the other engine? (Roger explicitly mentioned to not needing to select the other engines for debow)
Forgive me, I'm probably missing something that was mentioned earlier in this great thread.
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Checklists & flight control inverters
Since I am a fan of checklist, can anybody make a copy of the checklists available?
SFO Les calls out "Flight Control Inverters On" in his C/L. What are these?
Thanks much in advance.
SFO Les calls out "Flight Control Inverters On" in his C/L. What are these?
Thanks much in advance.
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OAF was a standard BA machine, except that being younger it (like OAG) didn't have the 'crown area' mods done
OAF was indeed a true BA aircraft, it title was bought for £1000 and 10,000FF, but significant sums ( million+) were then spent to deliver it to the BA spec. BA did fund and purchase it as their 6th Concorde, albeit at a greatly reduced price.
OAG sort of fell into BA's use. They had "bought" it for under £100,000k, with a must sell back clause , before OAF was delivered to give their services resilience while OAC whet back to Filton for repair. During its use it suffered contamination of its hyd systems, so was grounded, before this was repaired the Concrde programme all but shut down and BA held onto the aircraft fully registering it as OAG, initially it had been G-BFKW.
OAG flew for a short while but was eventually grounded, as I understand it mainly for spares recovery, but as it was a million miles aware spec with from the other BA ( cabin was even different) it was a easy choice to make.
When BA acquired all the spares and full access to G-BBDG a decision was made to bring OAG as close to BA spec as possible and be the first to have a new interior on the fleet. OAG was then then launch Concorde in the land our livery and a lot OAF was a standard BA machine, except that being younger it (like OAG) didn't have the 'crown area' mods done the air to air shots from this time are of it in 1985.
Crown area mods...were these not mandated and embodied fleet wide at the 12,000 major?
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The flight control inverters were the 26v AC power supplies for the flying controls working (from memory) at 1500hz rather than the normal 400hz.
There are people on here far more qualified, but i believe using the much higher frequency all but ruled out interference from any other aircraft system for the control signalling to the flight control surfaces
There are people on here far more qualified, but i believe using the much higher frequency all but ruled out interference from any other aircraft system for the control signalling to the flight control surfaces
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The flight control inverters were the 26V AC power supplies for the flying controls working (from memory) at 1500Hz rather than the normal 400Hz.
There are people on here far more qualified, but i believe using the much higher frequency all but ruled out interference from any other aircraft system for the control signalling to the flight control surfaces
There are people on here far more qualified, but i believe using the much higher frequency all but ruled out interference from any other aircraft system for the control signalling to the flight control surfaces
And the 1800Hz was chosen because it's halfway between the 4th and 5th harmonic of 400Hz, so yes, it minimised interference of the 400Hz main AC supply in the flying control system.
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Many thanks for this thread. Thank heavens Concorde didn't have an APU otherwise I wouldnt have had the pleasure of reading it.
I was at school in Basingstoke when Concorde first attended the Farnborough air show. Maths lessons were constantly interrupted by the third floor windows filling up with a very noisy aeroplane flying over at high alpha and wheels down. After the third circuit, the teacher (an Australian,) shouted at us that we'd seen your BXXXdy aeroplane now get back to work. Phillistine!
I never saw one flying without looking up in reverent awe and I cannot recall a time when anybody else wasn't doing so.
Came the day that I woke up to hear the sad news on the morning radio of the retirement. I emailed my comment and it was read out on the Today programme. Looking on the 'net at work at the other comments there was a small window telling me that BA were offering celebration flights. 1,000 tickets at £2,000 a go.
I'd just bought a house and my meagre savings were needed for a bathroom, hot water and some further essentials. I held out until tea break and dialled There were three tickets left. Make that two, please. I booked the first flight I could get in case something went wrong and the project was canned early.
Paying was another matter. All my money was in France and the BA desk at Southampton wouldn't take my cheque so I transferred money to my British account and tried it again. "There must be some mistake" said the nice lady at the desk. "This booking ref is coming up very expensive. I'm going to see if I can get it cheaper."
"Please don't." I replied.
"But you don't understand, This flight is VERY expensive. "I know." The people behind me were becoming disgruntled.
"I just don't get it. What class are you travelling?"
"Concorde."
The people behind me suddenly backed off.
I had a good trip out, my first trip on a 747. Ask for a Whiskey and get a nice little bottle of Johnny Walker.
I had a better trip back. Ask for a Whiskey and get enough eighteen year old Glenfiddich to drown a small child.
The experience changed my life. The only thrill that could get anywhere near it would be to pilot an aircraft myself. I now have about eight hours solo. It doesn't compare. Being SLF on Alpha Golf was the thrill of a lifetime and I have never regretted a penny of it.
To those contributors who worked on the programme in any capacity, Thank you for the enormous priviledge of being able to experience such a fine and beautiful thing.
Having rambled on for far too long already, I'll just recall a line from Radio 4's Week Ending: "Following a question in the House, the minister admitted that Concorde made more noise than the Bay City Rollers but pointed out that it was of far better quality."
I was at school in Basingstoke when Concorde first attended the Farnborough air show. Maths lessons were constantly interrupted by the third floor windows filling up with a very noisy aeroplane flying over at high alpha and wheels down. After the third circuit, the teacher (an Australian,) shouted at us that we'd seen your BXXXdy aeroplane now get back to work. Phillistine!
I never saw one flying without looking up in reverent awe and I cannot recall a time when anybody else wasn't doing so.
Came the day that I woke up to hear the sad news on the morning radio of the retirement. I emailed my comment and it was read out on the Today programme. Looking on the 'net at work at the other comments there was a small window telling me that BA were offering celebration flights. 1,000 tickets at £2,000 a go.
I'd just bought a house and my meagre savings were needed for a bathroom, hot water and some further essentials. I held out until tea break and dialled There were three tickets left. Make that two, please. I booked the first flight I could get in case something went wrong and the project was canned early.
Paying was another matter. All my money was in France and the BA desk at Southampton wouldn't take my cheque so I transferred money to my British account and tried it again. "There must be some mistake" said the nice lady at the desk. "This booking ref is coming up very expensive. I'm going to see if I can get it cheaper."
"Please don't." I replied.
"But you don't understand, This flight is VERY expensive. "I know." The people behind me were becoming disgruntled.
"I just don't get it. What class are you travelling?"
"Concorde."
The people behind me suddenly backed off.
I had a good trip out, my first trip on a 747. Ask for a Whiskey and get a nice little bottle of Johnny Walker.
I had a better trip back. Ask for a Whiskey and get enough eighteen year old Glenfiddich to drown a small child.
The experience changed my life. The only thrill that could get anywhere near it would be to pilot an aircraft myself. I now have about eight hours solo. It doesn't compare. Being SLF on Alpha Golf was the thrill of a lifetime and I have never regretted a penny of it.
To those contributors who worked on the programme in any capacity, Thank you for the enormous priviledge of being able to experience such a fine and beautiful thing.
Having rambled on for far too long already, I'll just recall a line from Radio 4's Week Ending: "Following a question in the House, the minister admitted that Concorde made more noise than the Bay City Rollers but pointed out that it was of far better quality."
Last edited by m.Berger; 26th Apr 2012 at 19:25. Reason: Spelling
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There's a question (OK, 2) I wonder if those on here can answer.
1) I undertsnd that skin temperature is calculated from OAT and Mach number. Why wasn't it simply measured directly by sensors on the nose skin?
2) The Air Data Computer calculates Mach (so skin temp is a calculation on a calculation!). Presumably one parameter it uses is IAS. What else is used in the calculation of Mach?
1) I undertsnd that skin temperature is calculated from OAT and Mach number. Why wasn't it simply measured directly by sensors on the nose skin?
2) The Air Data Computer calculates Mach (so skin temp is a calculation on a calculation!). Presumably one parameter it uses is IAS. What else is used in the calculation of Mach?