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Old 12th Oct 2010, 10:25
  #561 (permalink)  
 
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There is an interesting collection of Concorde related philatelic items (stamps, first day covers, etc.) at this blog site: myphilately.com - Concorde Blog.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 11:21
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Zimmerfly
I have to echo Landlady's comments. This has really been done to death in various forums (yawn!) , and people forget (or perhaps never knew in the first place) just how much vital work the captain in question did for the whole Concorde operation. (Including for example, personally negotianing with HMG regarding BA taking over the Concorde support costs etc, and forming and heading up the division that saw Concorde transformed from a loss making burden into a major profit centre for the airline). Also he was GM Concorde Division and not Chief Pilot.
To answer Steve's original TECHNICAL question; you must remember that using fuel for trimming was to offset long term changes in the centre of lift and not any short term stabilty shifts during landing. (The combination of pilots and elevons coped with that quite admirably ). And around four tonnes WAS transfered into tank 9 after landing, in order to aid ground stability, particularly during disembarkation.
landlady
I hope you are having a great time sunning yourself ('aint jealous, honest ) and have a rum punch or two for me.

V1...Oops
This site you mentioned is definately worth a visit; there are some great images there.

Dude
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 11:50
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No disrespect was meant for Captain Brian Walpole.

A quick Google search will reveal many interesting articles about him and his involvement with Concorde.
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 12:05
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Concorde was exactly the same as any other aircraft in that it would be loaded in such a manner that with zero fuel the aircraft's C of G would be within the landing limits.. If this was not possible then ballast fuel has to be loaded[ or any other form of ballast] so as to achieve this C of G. This ballast fuel however must not form part of the fuel burn or diversion fuel

With the above in mind all fuel on Concorde was useable fuel but during some part of the flight prior to being burnt it it would be used for varying inflight regime trimming.

Now prior to landing the F/E would pump a predetermined amount into tank 9 so as to achieve a C of G fwd of 53.5 % for landing. This was only required because there was still fuel on board. If the aircraft was held before landing and the fuel QTY dropped he would pump this fuel out of tank 9 and into the engine feed tanks as it was no longer required for C of G purposes

Therefore yes Concorde could safely land from a C of G point of view with no fuel.

And around four tonnes WAS transfered into tank 9 after landing, in order to aid ground stability, particularly during disembarkation.
landlady
There was nothing magical about 4 Tonnes in tank 9, and in fact it usually was too much for stability reasons, but for simplicity a single big figure was used. In fact if it was not possible to put 4000kgs in tank 9 [due to lack of fuel]then the flight deck crew were instructed to remain on the flight deck until the passengers had got off and the rear hold had been emptied. Now some of us flight deck crew helped more than others in this
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 12:35
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I'll have to be careful after my previous bludner...
But I seem to remember there were several occasions, where the rear cabin (about 3 tons when full, after all ...) was asked to disembark first, for the same reasons as mentioned above.

CJ
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Old 12th Oct 2010, 22:50
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If only I'd known that flight deck ballast was necessary, I would have volunteered!
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 10:45
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Brit312
There was nothing magical about 4 Tonnes in tank 9
Obviously not Brit; however nearly every time I saw the aeroplane after landing there was, you've guesed it, around 4 Tonnes in tank 9.
Feathers McGraw
If only I'd known that flight deck ballast was necessary, I would have volunteered!
Hahaha It was not as if our guys werer particularly portly either, in fact it was a combination of the portly, the not so portly and the 'I can't see him, where the hell is he?.'
But the aircraft was probably more prone to ground stability issues than any other that I have known in my lifetime.

PS. Would you believe that this brilliant thread has had more than 53,000 reads now? All thanks to Stilton for starting it up in the first place. Keep posting guys (and gal(s) ).

Dude
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 12:27
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Dear M2dude

Do you have any more Trivia Quiz's?
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 12:49
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Bizdev
Sure, give me a day or two and I'll throw in (up?) some more trivia stuff.
Regards

Dude
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 12:58
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Marvellous
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 18:38
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I went searching for Brian Walpole to read about the out-of-fuel incident and found this video. I don't suppose anyone has any footage of a barrel roll do they? Anyway, some excellent footage on the clip:YouTube - Concorde Captain talks about Barrel Roll
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 21:50
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Mike,
No, sadly there is no known footage of a real Concorde barrel roll.

But it's been done.... repeatedly.
Confirmed not only by Brian Wadpole, but even by André Turcat himself.

Who, by the way, stated that "what annoyed me the most about it all.... was that I never had an occasion to do it myself....".

CJ
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Old 13th Oct 2010, 23:29
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Nice little quote.

I've just started reading Genesis of the Jet, by John Golley again - for the third time. I'm sure you know it's about Sir Frank Whittle and the birth of the jet engine. In the introduction there is an account of a Concorde flight to Washington, that carried Sir Frank at the age of about 76. It concludes;

'After they landed at Dulles International Airport outside Washington, Captain Monty Burton addressed his passengers;
"Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Washington on this fine afternoon. We have covered the 3900 miles from London to Washington in 3 hours 37 minutes, giving us an average speed of well over 1000 miles per hour. The maximum speed we achieved was 1340 miles per hour and our maximum height was 60,000ft, eleven miles above the surface of the Earth.

Today we have the great hour of carrying Sir Frank Whittle who invented the jet engine which made all this possible." There was a great round of applause and a bit of cheering, which was most unusual from Concorde passengers. When Monty Burton left the aircraft, an American passenger came up to him and said; "You know Captain, you've really put the icing on the cake for me. To travel on Concorde as a fellow passenger with Sir Frank Whittle is something I can relate to my grandchildren!"

Great book by the way.

Roger.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 21:25
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Devil Ze Concorde Quiz Mk 2 (Or is it Mach 2?).

As requested here is the second in the diabolical series of Concorde quizes. If you were never personally involved withe the aircraft you can leave out the really stinky questions if you want. Most answers can be found either in this thread, by looking at the many panel photos around or as usual by asking Mr Google

1) How many Concorde airframes were built?

2) As far as the British constructed aircraft went, name the destinations that were served?. Regular flight numbers only, excludes charters etc.

3) What was the departure time for the ORIGINAL morning LHR-JFK Concorde services? (Not called the BA001 then either).

4) Further to question 3 above, what WERE the original flight numbers for the BA001 and BA003? (The morning and evening LHR-JFK services?).

5) There were no less than FORTY SIX fuel pumps on Concorde. What was the breakdown for these? (Clue; don't forget the scavange pump ).

6) What was the only development airframe to have a TOTALLY unique shape?

7) This one is particularly aimed at ChristiaanJ. What was the total number of gyros on the aircraft?

8) How many wheel brakes?

9) What Mach number was automatic engine variable intake control enabled?

10) Above each bank of engine instruments were three lights, a blue, a green and an amber. What did they each signify?

11) At what airfied were the first BA crew base training details held?

12) What LHR runways did Concorde use for landing and take-off? (Trick question, not as obvious as it might seem).

13) What operator had serious plans to operate Concorde from SNN to JFK in the early 1980's?

14) What development aircraft did not exceed Mach 2 until fifteen months after her maiden flight?

Answers in 7 days, if further guidence (or clues) required then feel free to IM me.

Dude

Last edited by M2dude; 16th Oct 2010 at 07:00. Reason: Addition of missing question... I am sooo nasty.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 22:53
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Nice one, M2dude

I've saved the questions, and again same deal... I'll try to answer as many as possible without cheating.

But I will have to look up a few things.... I have no idea which airport is SNN without looking it up!

CJ
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 01:43
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SNN is Shannon my friend.
Oh, and you may want to copy questions again; there is an extra one I've added.
Best Regards

Dude

Last edited by M2dude; 16th Oct 2010 at 08:50.
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 13:47
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questions

Humble SLF here, hope it is ok to have a stab at the questions, mods please feel free to delete if necessary.

1) How many Concorde airframes were built?

22, 20 that flew and 2 test frames

2) As far as the British constructed aircraft went, name the destinations that were served?. Regular flight numbers only, excludes charters etc.

New York, Washington, Miami, Barbados, Toronto, Bahrain and Singapore, no British registered aircraft ever operated to or form Dallas, should not forget BAs most popular destination of all time-London


3) What was the departure time for the ORIGINAL morning LHR-JFK Concorde services? (Not called the BA001 then either).

0930-Local

4) Further to question 3 above, what WERE the original flight numbers for the BA001 and BA003? (The morning and evening LHR-JFK services?).

193 & 195 respectiveley

5) There were no less than FORTY SIX fuel pumps on Concorde. What was the breakdown for these? (Clue; don't forget the scavange pump ).

Pass


6) What was the only development airframe to have a TOTALLY unique shape?

101, G-AXDN


7) This one is particularly aimed at ChristiaanJ. What was the total number of gyros on the aircraft?

pass


8) How many wheel brakes?

8


9) What Mach number was automatic engine variable intake control enabled?

1.3


10) Above each bank of engine instruments were three lights, a blue, a green and an amber. What did they each signify?

Not sure here, best guess -green was part of the take-off moniter -red failure-blue reverse

11) At what airfied were the first BA crew base training details held?

Prestwick, shannon, and one in France


12) What LHR runways did Concorde use for landing and take-off? (Trick question, not as obvious as it might seem).

28L , 28R, 27L, 27R, 9L, 9R 10L 10R, 23

13) What operator had serious plans to operate Concorde from SNN to JFK in the early 1980's?

Fed-ex


14) What development aircraft did not exceed Mach 2 until fifteen months after her maiden flight?

214? G-BFKW
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 19:45
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OAB11D
Not posting any answers here yet, but you've done very well, SLF or not. I am sure that I speak for all of 'us' when I say that your input is more than welcome here, as are you sir. From your screen name I assume you once flew in 11D on G-BOAB?
You might want to look again at my wording for the 'destinations' question #2, it said British CONSTRUCTED aircraft. (I apreciate that once the G was covered over in IAD the aircraft became American registered).

Dude
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 20:12
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1) How many Concorde airframes were built?

22 total. 2 test, 9 BA, 9 AF, 2 spares (1 BA, 1 AF).

2) As far as the British constructed aircraft went, name the destinations that were served?. Regular flight numbers only, excludes charters etc.

JFK, Dulles Intl., Barbados, Miami, Bahrain, Singapore.

3) What was the departure time for the ORIGINAL morning LHR-JFK Concorde services? (Not called the BA001 then either).

No idea.

4) Further to question 3 above, what WERE the original flight numbers for the BA001 and BA003? (The morning and evening LHR-JFK services?).

No idea.

5) There were no less than FORTY SIX fuel pumps on Concorde. What was the breakdown for these? (Clue; don't forget the scavange pump ).

13 tanks, 2 main pumps each (except tank 11 which had 4 pumps) = 28
Main and aux engine feed pumps (3 per collector, 4 collectors for a total of 12)
Fuel pumps from aux tanks to mains = 4
Fuel dump = 2

6) What was the only development airframe to have a TOTALLY unique shape?

BAC 221. Flying test bed for the wing design.

7) This one is particularly aimed at ChristiaanJ. What was the total number of gyros on the aircraft?

I'm guessing 14.

8) How many wheel brakes?

8. 1 per wheel, 4 total on each main gear.

9) What Mach number was automatic engine variable intake control enabled?

Mach 1.3.

10) Above each bank of engine instruments were three lights, a blue, a green and an amber. What did they each signify?

Blue = Reverse
Amber = Reheat failure
Green = Good to go

11) At what airfied were the first BA crew base training details held?

Filton.

12) What LHR runways did Concorde use for landing and take-off? (Trick question, not as obvious as it might seem).

27 L/R, 09 R.

13) What operator had serious plans to operate Concorde from SNN to JFK in the early 1980's?

Braniff.

14) What development aircraft did not exceed Mach 2 until fifteen months after her maiden flight?

Concorde? Just a guess.

ECAM Actions.

Last edited by ECAM_Actions; 16th Oct 2010 at 20:38.
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Old 16th Oct 2010, 21:27
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OK, I see others have already posted answers.
I've carefully avoided looking at them, but I'll might as well plug in mine now.

Originally Posted by M2dude
If you were never personally involved withe the aircraft you can leave out the really stinky questions if you want.
My personal problem is that I was involved in the very earliest days, before the aircraft went into service, and then in the last days and afterwards...
So the questions dealing with the in-service period are totally outside my field of experience... all I can do is guess, in case I saw the answers somewhere.

1) How many Concorde airframes were built?
Twenty-two.
Two static-test airframes.
- One at Toulouse, for purely static tests, and tests such as vibration and flutter.
- One at Farnborough, for the long-duration thermal fatigue tests.
(A few bits and pieces of the Farnborough test specimen have survived, and can still be seen at the Brooklands museum).
Two prototypes (001 and 002)
Two pre-production aircraft (01 and 02)
Two production aircraft used for certification, that never entered service (201 - F-WTSB and 202 - G-BBDG)
Fourteen production aircraft, seven that served with British Airways, seven that served with Air France.

2) As far as the British constructed aircraft went, name the destinations that were served?. Regular flight numbers only, excludes charters etc.
Not a clue as to the full list.
- Bahrain, obviously.
- JFK.
- IAD (not sure if that's rated as regular, or only incidental)
- Dallas (with Braniff)
- Barbados (of course, right until the end)
- Sngapore (with Singapore Airlines, and G-BOAD in Singapore Airlines colours on one side)
- Sydney (again no idea if that rated as a regular flight or only a few tries)

3) What was the departure time for the ORIGINAL morning LHR-JFK Concorde services? (Not called the BA001 then either).
Not a clue either. Vague memory of about 10:00 am which gave you a full working day in New York.

4) Further to question 3 above, what WERE the original flight numbers for the BA001 and BA003? (The morning and evening LHR-JFK services?)..
Never flew on them, never had to deal with them.
BA174 comes to mind from the depths of my memory, in that case BA003 would have been BA176?

5) There were no less than FORTY SIX fuel pumps on Concorde. What was the breakdown for these? (Clue; don't forget the scavenge pump )
M2dude, I did AFCS, not the fuel system. I believe you, but without pulling out some diagrams I honestly have NO idea.
I expect each tank had at least two pumps, which gets me up to 26.
Then there were a few emergency pumps for the trim tanks, and I suppose each engine had additional pumps associated with it.
Still nowhere near the 46 I need to find.....

6) What airframe had the only TOTALLY unique shape?
That would have been my old friend, 01 (G-AXDN), first pre-production aircraft, now at Duxford.
It was the first Concorde with the new transparent visor, but it still had the short tail that characterised the prototypes.
It was 02 (F-WTSA), the first French pre-production aircraft, that was close to the final shape of the production aircraft.

7) This one is particularly aimed at ChristiaanJ. What was the total number of gyros on the aircraft?
Good question.... never counted them all. But I'll try a guess.
First a nice one, the SFENA Emergency Standby Artificial Horizon (made by the firm I worked for).
Ran off the Emergency Battery Bus via a small independent inverter.
And if that failed too, it would still run reliably for several minutes on its own inertia.
Next, the rate gyros used by the autostabilisation system ; these measured the angular rate of the aircraft along the three main axes, pitch, roll and yaw.
There were six, three each for the two autostab systems.
Now the rest....
Each IMU (inertial measurement unit, part of the inertial naviagation system) had three gyros.
With three INS on board, that would make nine.
Much as I try, I can't remember other ones, so I'll look forward to the final answer.
I can imagine the weather radar using an additional gyro for stabilisation, but I never went there.

8) How many wheel brakes?
Unless this is a trick question, I would say eight, for each of the main gear wheels.
The nose gear did not have any brakes - unless there were some small ones to stop the wheels rotating after retraction of the gear, but not used during landing.

9) What Mach number was automatic engine variable intake control enabled?
No idea.
Mach 1.0 or thereabouts is my personal guess only.

10) Above each bank of engine instruments were three lights, a blue, a green and an amber. What did they each signify?
I know that they each monitored the status of one of the engines, because it was too complex for the pilots to fully monitor all the parameters of all four engines in the short time between start-of-roll and V1... they had too many other things to do.
But I don't remember what each light meant, would have to look it up in the manual.

11) At what airfied were the first BA crew base training details held?
No idea.
Was it Brize Norton, or Casablanca?

12) What LHR runways did Concorde use for landing and take-off? (Trick question, not as obvious as it might seem).
No idea.
Vague memory of it being systematically the North runway for noise issues.

13) What operator had serious plans to operate Concorde from SNN to JFK in the early 1980's?
No idea.

14) What development aircraft did not exceed Mach 2 until fifteen months after her maiden flight?
I would expect the obvious answer to be 002.
Working up from first flight to Mach 2 was a slow and laborious process, and in the end it was 001 that both flew first, and also went to Mach 2 first.
I don't think any of the other aircraft took that long.

A I said, I tried to answer all questions "off the top of my head", without looking at any other sources.

CJ
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