Thrust lever guarding after take-off
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I agree totally. For incapacitation reasons - hands off thrust levers after V1 until thrust reduction after acceleration. Likewise on a go around - set the thrust and hands off. After all a go-around is only takeoff albeit at 200 ft or whatever. I see guys obey the first case but not the second, I wonder why?
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Hi
Does anyone have any examples of when one of their First Officers as PF has put their hand back on the TLs after rotation and made an action slip?
I suppose the only dangerous action slip would be to retard the TLs - has this actually happened to any fellow Airbus captains (in the sim or on the line)? Are there any case studies where this has been a contributory factor in any accident/incident?
Cheers
Pro Spin
Does anyone have any examples of when one of their First Officers as PF has put their hand back on the TLs after rotation and made an action slip?
I suppose the only dangerous action slip would be to retard the TLs - has this actually happened to any fellow Airbus captains (in the sim or on the line)? Are there any case studies where this has been a contributory factor in any accident/incident?
Cheers
Pro Spin
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I put my hand back on the thrust levers after takeoff.
This is so I can apply TOGA immediately I need it in event of an engine problem.
In the middle of an emergency is not the time to "be looking" for the thrust levers.
I am a Captain, 22 years experience on jets.
SOPS are hands on sidestick and thrust levers until flaps up, EXCEPT for V1 until after airborne.
This is so I can apply TOGA immediately I need it in event of an engine problem.
In the middle of an emergency is not the time to "be looking" for the thrust levers.
I am a Captain, 22 years experience on jets.
SOPS are hands on sidestick and thrust levers until flaps up, EXCEPT for V1 until after airborne.
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Forgive me but guarding the throttles seems to be a (no brainier) unless you are operating an aircraft that requires an unusual amount of force on the pitch or roll axis (do not know any to this spec.)
I did watch a captain argue with the landing f/o from G/S cap down to about 400ft agl to the point that that said capt slapped the FO's hand on the guarded throttle over this procedure.
Type was MD-11 and given the aircraft's landing charistic I felt the the F/O was more competent than the capt. by doing so.
I would also feel that unless the landing pilot flying any aircraft that could not be handled with a single hand (really how long does it take to to move the throttle hand to the yolk in a failed approach "TOGA" being the first response) that could not be done so responsibly is ridiculous.
I do not see how even by my uneducated (formally) view is not logical.
I did watch a captain argue with the landing f/o from G/S cap down to about 400ft agl to the point that that said capt slapped the FO's hand on the guarded throttle over this procedure.
Type was MD-11 and given the aircraft's landing charistic I felt the the F/O was more competent than the capt. by doing so.
I would also feel that unless the landing pilot flying any aircraft that could not be handled with a single hand (really how long does it take to to move the throttle hand to the yolk in a failed approach "TOGA" being the first response) that could not be done so responsibly is ridiculous.
I do not see how even by my uneducated (formally) view is not logical.
Thread Starter
Tankengine
One of the main considerations of this thread was to point out the situations where the automatic application of TOGA would be a bad idea. Sure, it is there to be used if required but I would question the necessity of its immediate use. Performance should be covered adequately at the planning. stage.
In 43 years flying, including 7 years as an aircraft qualified Base Training Captain (cf. sim.qualified) I have experienced an engine failure at VR where the F/O shouted "#4 engine failure!" and then proceeded to grab the #2 start lever! Swift intervention followed. Also doing night A330 base training with the last item to complete being a Go-around from below 100ft. Despite the briefing and rebrief on finals, at the call the trainee closed both thrust levers rather than advanced them. Unfortunately for me he did remember to pitch up!
So, to all the advocates out there of the `throttle death grip` please ask yourself "what are the benefits to me versus the pitfalls?"
PS to all non Airbus contributors remember the thrust levers on the Airbus never move of their own accord.
One of the main considerations of this thread was to point out the situations where the automatic application of TOGA would be a bad idea. Sure, it is there to be used if required but I would question the necessity of its immediate use. Performance should be covered adequately at the planning. stage.
In 43 years flying, including 7 years as an aircraft qualified Base Training Captain (cf. sim.qualified) I have experienced an engine failure at VR where the F/O shouted "#4 engine failure!" and then proceeded to grab the #2 start lever! Swift intervention followed. Also doing night A330 base training with the last item to complete being a Go-around from below 100ft. Despite the briefing and rebrief on finals, at the call the trainee closed both thrust levers rather than advanced them. Unfortunately for me he did remember to pitch up!
So, to all the advocates out there of the `throttle death grip` please ask yourself "what are the benefits to me versus the pitfalls?"
PS to all non Airbus contributors remember the thrust levers on the Airbus never move of their own accord.
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Meikleour,
Your two examples do nothing to help your argument, the first guy grabbed the WRONG switch while the second pulled instead of pushed.
I do not advocate a "deathgrip" on the thrust levers, merely that if your hand is on them you can push up to TOGA with little effort.
Better that than flailing around looking for them.
From my experience in the A330 sim pushing TOGA after takeoff has never been a problem, unlike NOT pushing it, which has!
As I stated earlier, that is our company SOPs, so that is what we do.
Your two examples do nothing to help your argument, the first guy grabbed the WRONG switch while the second pulled instead of pushed.
I do not advocate a "deathgrip" on the thrust levers, merely that if your hand is on them you can push up to TOGA with little effort.
Better that than flailing around looking for them.
From my experience in the A330 sim pushing TOGA after takeoff has never been a problem, unlike NOT pushing it, which has!
As I stated earlier, that is our company SOPs, so that is what we do.
Thread Starter
Tankengine,
If your SOPs call for it, then that is what you do.
One of my points was that inexperienced crew may do unexpected things!
You still studiously ignore the situations that require not the prompt application of TOGA but rather the reverse! By the way, what do you do with the thrust levers when you do a TOGA take-off? Do you still guard them?
I used to work for one of the first A330 operators.( ie. 1995 onwards) After a few years we changed the Octopus speeds to Min V1s (company policy) This caused no end of problems in the sim. initially when guys added TOGA before they had fully got the pitch attitude under stable control. So, your experience may be relevant to your operation but not universal.
PS you don`t work for an outfit that once parked a B744 on a golf course off the end of 21L at BKK do you? I seem to remember that that incident involved some unexpected throttle movements between the two pilots involved.
If your SOPs call for it, then that is what you do.
One of my points was that inexperienced crew may do unexpected things!
You still studiously ignore the situations that require not the prompt application of TOGA but rather the reverse! By the way, what do you do with the thrust levers when you do a TOGA take-off? Do you still guard them?
I used to work for one of the first A330 operators.( ie. 1995 onwards) After a few years we changed the Octopus speeds to Min V1s (company policy) This caused no end of problems in the sim. initially when guys added TOGA before they had fully got the pitch attitude under stable control. So, your experience may be relevant to your operation but not universal.
PS you don`t work for an outfit that once parked a B744 on a golf course off the end of 21L at BKK do you? I seem to remember that that incident involved some unexpected throttle movements between the two pilots involved.
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Yep,
That operator, just shows what can happen when you let a checkie/management out of the office!
If the PF had not been overidden a normal go around would have occurred!
Still a reasonably good record Nigel.
Sorry, don't know what the octopuss is?
That operator, just shows what can happen when you let a checkie/management out of the office!
If the PF had not been overidden a normal go around would have occurred!
Still a reasonably good record Nigel.
Sorry, don't know what the octopuss is?
Thread Starter
Octopus was the Take-off Performance Data programme supplied by Airbus. It was up to the individual airline Ops Depts. to specify the parameters to be used. In our case the company switched from normal mid range V speeds to minimum ones and this was what made the V1 cuts so much more critical. Less than 11PA no unstick - more than 13PA and speed would trend below V2 whilst the gear was travelling! Because of this more guys would tend to go for TOGA very early on and we saw quite a few very unstable rotations and near pod/wingtip strikes. Don`t misunderstand me. I am not saying don`t use TOGA just that not all situations require it.
As an aside, I believe the chap had visited my company to give us the benefit of his own CRM skills not long before the incident. Lets call it an incident - would not want to call it an accident!
I`m off now for a `tinny` or two!
As an aside, I believe the chap had visited my company to give us the benefit of his own CRM skills not long before the incident. Lets call it an incident - would not want to call it an accident!
I`m off now for a `tinny` or two!
