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B777-300 Tail scrape

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B777-300 Tail scrape

Old 14th Oct 2009, 15:08
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B777-300 Tail scrape

B777-300 tail scraped during takeoff with an attitude of about 7 degrees,light gusty wind with rising temp condition,max TOW RWY 34L YSSY. How could this happen when tail scrape attitude in the manual is 8.9 degrees? Any ideas?
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Old 14th Oct 2009, 16:16
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Over rapid rotation at high gross weight could do it. For the 747 at max weight, the rear fuselage can come down to within 18'' of the runway during rotation. It only takes a bit of bizarre and rough handling at high weights to have a scrape.
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Old 14th Oct 2009, 16:24
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Add a little downhill slope of the runway, perhaps?
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Old 14th Oct 2009, 16:46
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Greetings, Oleo collapsing at rotation? (not sure of the spelling )
 
Old 14th Oct 2009, 16:47
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Cool

The clue is gusty.
Any gust in the 7 secs after initiating rotation is likely to result in a tailscrape in a B777-200/300.
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Old 15th Oct 2009, 18:08
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Not an ER as it won't let you scrape.

Any more information?

halas
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 07:06
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The 777ER did scrape tail in NRT but in strong wind.
VIDEO: Korean Air 777-300ER Tail Strike at Tokyo Airport | NYCAviation.com | Planespotting and Aviation Photography, Breaking Airline News, Aviation Discussion
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 08:37
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I've watched it time and again in long(er) bodied airplanes.
Heavy weight takeoff, gusty winds...and yet, dispite discussion about this prior to the takeoff maneuver, some First Officers continue to use a rapid rotation technique...and in doing so, tailscrapes can be expected.

So, what to do?
In my ops, if the takeoff is near maximum weight, and the First Officer has had a propensity in the past of not listening to reason about his takeoff rotation technique...the takeoff is mine, regardless if it hurts his feelings...or not.
In addition (and this was recommended by Boeing many years ago with the long bodied 707)...use (if runway permits) the improved climb option for takeoff V-speeds in gusty wind max weight takeoffs, thereby helping to avoid tailstrikes.

That is my technique anyway, with heavy jet transport aircraft.

The idea of waiting for the Vr call, hauling back rapidly on the pole, and hoping it all works out, is nonsense, in my considered opinion.
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 08:52
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411A: Have you considered that most first officers are aspiring captains, and will likely listen and follow advice if it is correctly and appropriately given? Have you considered the fact that in many cases, the captain does not know it all, despite having more experience? I came to read this thread right after the discussion about circling minima, where I did react to your statement "if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen".

I do apologize in advance for the thread drift, but if your first officers continually "can't take the heat" or does not want to listen to you, do you routinely override them? I have my opinions about such CRM...

Preparing for incoming.....
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 09:06
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...or does not want to listen to you, do you routinely override them?
Absolutely.
I'm the Commander, not them.
If they don't like this arrangement, they can always complain to the Chief Pilot (of course, if they do so, they will be talking in my direction).

I have my opinions about such CRM...
I'm sure you do, however it makes little difference to me.
Long before the latest CRM nonsense, we had something far better (in my opinion)...it was called crew coordination...worked good!
And...still does.

New(er) guys to the FD wouldn't know about this, of course....their loss.
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 09:14
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OK. Let's agree to disagree then .

And let the tailscrape topic continue....
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 09:19
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411, You Numpty!!

At an airline I used to work at, we had 2 tail strikes. All by Captains. One other occasion saw myself calling attitude twice followed by nudging the column discreetly forward due to LDG ATT 6 degrees and an unsafe landing technique being used (By the Captain)

Get away from this "I told the F/O not to do it" mentality. I would personally not like to fly with you... get out of the past!

CRM???? Not here Sir!!

Being in the left hand seat has taught me a whole lot about how to treat people, I think it's about time you let your defense mechanism down and let the little dude in! You're there as a coach as well as a Signature...
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 09:41
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I would personally not like to fly with you...
I'm quite sure you would not be invited, Dash2Class.
Having been an instructor and check pilot for quite a long time, I find that pilots that don't listen to reason, are not worth bothering with...they can go and work somewhere else.
In 43 years of professional flying, I have had only one pilot complain about my personal style...he went directly to the DFO...and received a two months suspension for his trouble.
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 10:03
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I'm sorry, I hope I'm correct in assuming that you don't handle all cockpit disagreements in that way - but your approach as you described it seems a tad antiquated, no offense. Obviously if an F/O doesn't agree with reason as you described the captain should make his point clear - after all he's PIC. But - that doesn't mean that the FO is always wrong in having a different opinion than the captain... In any case, whats left to discuss here? Yes, someone scraped a 777 tail, doesn't matter who did it, some other bloke managed to take out dozens of approach lights in an A345. Mishaps happen, there are well known ways of preventing it.
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 10:03
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Been there to in my 30 plus years of which 25 of those years as a line training captain/check airman.

High Temp. High Alt., MTOW. Over a cup of coffee after our ops briefing, I review takeoff roll, and rotation procedures and techniques used to avoid the dreaded tail strike.

At the point of rotation, I am very aware or rate of rotation, and my hand is at the ready on the column to prevent the over-rotation... as discussed over our cup of coffee before walking out to the jet.

Saves the airplane, ensures good CRM for a long day, and we can review the events during that particular takeoff, and try it again.

I try to impart to the newbies that an airplane is not a simulator, nor does an airplane know how to read performance or procedure manuals. Not one takeoff will be the same as previous takeoffs... other than the fact the plane somehow, by the miracle of the Sky Gods, separates from the earth until such time, either it's time to land, or the plane runs out of gas.
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 12:51
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some questions to 411A

Hi

May i ask you some questions, as i am not so experienced as you are....

Who is going to prevent your mistakes in the Cockpit?
How do you encourage and support open communication from the other CM?
How do you handle a CM who has a better idea than you?
How do you handle a mistake made by you but not yet discovered by the other CM?
Do you admit that you have no idea to other CM?
Do you think its your duty to teach your CMs not only Handling, Procedural, Technikal but also interpersonal skills?

you can count yourself as a lucky chap that you made it so old and a poor guy that you didnt learn anything during all those years...

cheers....
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 14:28
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May i ask you some questions, as i am not so experienced as you are....
Of course you may, although you may not like the answers...
Who is going to prevent your mistakes in the Cockpit?
We two other crew on the FD.
If they see a problem, they speak up, I listen.
A simple concept to understand.
How do you encourage and support open communication from the other CM?
See above reply.
How do you handle a CM who has a better idea than you?
If the idea has merit, it is considered and implemented, depending on the particular situation.
How do you handle a mistake made by you but not yet discovered by the other CM?
I use it as a learning example.
Do you admit that you have no idea to other CM?
Don't know what you refer to, here.
Do you think its your duty to teach your CMs not only Handling, Procedural, Technikal but also interpersonal skills?
I have nothing to do with 'interpersonal skills'...that is another department.
Lets look at line training as a good example.
The new First Officer has a job to do...learn the airplane and the proper technique, as mandated by the company.
I, on the other hand, also have a job to do, to instruct in these techniques and procedures.
We have a limited amount of time to do this, so....I instruct, the new First Officer listens and applies the instructions and techniques in a reasonable manner.
This work out just fine in the vast majority of situations

In our small company now, we have FD crew members whom have been at the job for quite some time, so few problems develop.

Much younger crew, who are perhaps new to airline flying, now take these CRM courses, and are promptly told that 'the old ways' were rubbish.
I, on the other hand, have a completely different idea about this...the 'old ways' (as some like to put it) had many advantages, which quite frankly, CRM 'instructors' wouldn't know anything about...such as crew coordination (mentioned previously) which works just fine, lasts a long time.

Now, back to tailstrikes, and the prevention thereof.
In short, pay attention to what you are doing....and not just pull on the pole, and hope.
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 15:23
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411A, so as to better understand your perspective regarding this subject, how much time do you have in the B777?
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 15:33
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...so as to better understand your perspective regarding this subject, how much time do you have in the B777?
None whatsoever, however,....I have adequately described techniques for avoiding tailstrikes on takeoff, and...I have many friends who do have quite a lot of time in 777 aircraft, and they share my thoughts completely.

Airboos airplanes?
Don't know anything about those, and have no desire, either.
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Old 16th Oct 2009, 15:47
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My opinion...

CRM is a great concept and tool, but it is useless without detailed, explicit SOPs. We follow the SOPs....one guy keeps tabs on the other. Both, then, stay out of trouble. On many occasions, good CRM has kept me out of trouble (and the Chief Pilot's Office).

A good F/O is worth his weight in gold.

The problems with CRM that I've experienced is the F/O 'correcting me' when I am, in fact, following the SOP, but he has no idea what he's talking about. I remember one time, the F/O (who demonstrated an attitude on several previous occasions) consistently failed to make required callouts. When I brought this to his attention, he argued with me. So, I asked him to get out his book, so that I could show him....he refused.

Things worked out well for me, however, because the next stop was at a hub/crew base. He suddenly became ill and got off the trip. While he is still a problem child, he's no longer my problem.

CRM, too often, is thought of as making the cockpit a 'happy/clappy' work environment. In fact, it is a management concept that promotes the use of all available resources to achieve a safe and compliant operation.

Complete and correct information and situational awareness are vital to proper decisions. This is where a good F/O comes in handy. On the other hand, however, bad information given to me by the F/O is much worse than no information. That is, if you don't know something, please say so. Don't feed me XXXXXXXX (nonsense), because I listen to my F/Os, and I make decisions based on the information I have.

Just my two cents.....


Fly safe,

PantLoad
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