B777-300 Tail scrape
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,235
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From: USofA
Well Bungfai asked a pretty simple question regarding tail strikes in the B777-300 which is a little different animal that the 300ER in that it does not have the semi-levered gear on it. There is more to flying the B777-300 than just "pulling on the pole" and your sugestion that some how old school techniques simply override all that we have learned about ths aircraft sometimes do not apply.
For starters here are some of the ways that you can kiss the tail on the 777 and as I reacall many of these apply to your favorite airplane, the L1011, of which I have more than a few hours as well.
To start in order of occurance:
#1 Missed trimed due to out of CG effects
#2 Miss use of the flight director
#3 Alternate Aft CG applications
#4 Early rotation
#5 Agressive rotation as in pulling on the pole
Your CRM comments are somewhat over the top. Based on your stated experience, I think I have you beat and I still learn something from other pilots almost every week. Many of them are younger and have less time, type ratings, etc. but none the less they still are able to teach me something as long as I keep an open mind.
By the way I have several friends that have flown the SR71, but that hardly qualifies me to comment on that aircraft.
For starters here are some of the ways that you can kiss the tail on the 777 and as I reacall many of these apply to your favorite airplane, the L1011, of which I have more than a few hours as well.
To start in order of occurance:
#1 Missed trimed due to out of CG effects
#2 Miss use of the flight director
#3 Alternate Aft CG applications
#4 Early rotation
#5 Agressive rotation as in pulling on the pole
Your CRM comments are somewhat over the top. Based on your stated experience, I think I have you beat and I still learn something from other pilots almost every week. Many of them are younger and have less time, type ratings, etc. but none the less they still are able to teach me something as long as I keep an open mind.
By the way I have several friends that have flown the SR71, but that hardly qualifies me to comment on that aircraft.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
From: europe
Are we all saying that...
411A is never right?
Or do we all know far more than him?
Last question Is CRM a big stick to hit people with we don't like the sound of?
It used to be "Its Elf N safety love, They woodent let me do that" (the old stick)
I'm glad we seem to know it all (including 411a)
411A is never right?
Or do we all know far more than him?
Last question Is CRM a big stick to hit people with we don't like the sound of?
It used to be "Its Elf N safety love, They woodent let me do that" (the old stick)
I'm glad we seem to know it all (including 411a)
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 0
From: USofA
I don't think 411A is in charge of anything more than ferrying a few L10ll's from boneyard to MRO facilities these days. Certainly not any traditional airline work. Just dig up a crew (no pun inteneded), and move this old Lockheed to some place better.
Certainly not a Boeing term.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 1
From: Hampshire, UK
I'm afraid 411A has it right.
I have not infrequently discussed the need with copilots in conditions of strong crosswind, contaminated runways or poor visibility that the rotation must be completely standard and at a normal rate. Then I have been startled when the wretch wrenches the thing off the runway 'in an attempt to get airborne quickly and cleanly'. It doesn't work on a large, heavy aeroplane, and seemingly, no amount of discussion gets the point through. It is only when they see a take-off rotate up close of a large heavy type that the lesson gets through some numbskulls!
It is apparent that is overwhelmingly the most likely cause here. Inexperience, lack of thought, lack of understanding.
I've watched it time and again in long(er) bodied airplanes.
Heavy weight takeoff, gusty winds...and yet, dispite discussion about this prior to the takeoff maneuver, some First Officers continue to use a rapid rotation technique...and in doing so, tailscrapes can be expected.
Heavy weight takeoff, gusty winds...and yet, dispite discussion about this prior to the takeoff maneuver, some First Officers continue to use a rapid rotation technique...and in doing so, tailscrapes can be expected.
It is apparent that is overwhelmingly the most likely cause here. Inexperience, lack of thought, lack of understanding.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
...completely standard and at a normal rate. Then I have been startled when the wretch wrenches the thing off the runway 'in an attempt to get airborne quickly and cleanly'. It doesn't work on a large, heavy aeroplane, .....
It is apparent that is overwhelmingly the most likely cause here. Inexperience, lack of thought, lack of understanding.
When young'uns start listening to more experienced folks, instead of ....'never mind the facts, my mind is made up'... will it change.
In the meantime, heavy weight takeoffs are mine...except, if the First Officer knows what he is doing.
Fortunately, my present one does...an absolute pleasure to fly with.
As I have just renewed my TRE/IRE, he will be promoted to the LHS, shortly.
Then, would I put my family on his flight? Remembering, the Commander is in charge, not others...
Yup, sure would.
At age 29, he is a class act.
A superb pilot....and futuire Commander.
NB.
He has also flown the A320...I will not repeat what he has to say about this aeroplane....as it is nothing to write home about.
Using clean language.
Last edited by 411A; 16th October 2009 at 21:56.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Times have moved on 30 years
In some air carriers, the 'older ones' are still in charge, and will continuaually turn the screws accordingly.
Shape up...or ship out.
Makes no difference to me....the pay is the same.
Howsomever...there are exceptions.
For these guys, rapid promotion, and they are welcome.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 454
Likes: 3
From: Georgia, USA
For starters here are some of the ways that you can kiss the tail on the 777 and as I reacall many of these apply to your favorite airplane, the L1011, of which I have more than a few hours as well.
To start in order of occurance:
#1 Missed trimed due to out of CG effects
#2 Miss use of the flight director
#3 Alternate Aft CG applications
#4 Early rotation
#5 Agressive rotation as in pulling on the pole
To start in order of occurance:
#1 Missed trimed due to out of CG effects
#2 Miss use of the flight director
#3 Alternate Aft CG applications
#4 Early rotation
#5 Agressive rotation as in pulling on the pole
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 0
From: USofA
I agree that most of the L1011 tail strikes at Delta at least were during landings. Holding off for that smooth touch down had consequences.
Of all the tail strikes in the past 20+ years, how many were when the F/O was flying? Probably less than half. Good grief, some of you guys make it sound like ONLY the Capt/Commander is capable of handling the BIG jets. Get a grip on your selves as this is simply a figment of your over active imagination.
Of all the tail strikes in the past 20+ years, how many were when the F/O was flying? Probably less than half. Good grief, some of you guys make it sound like ONLY the Capt/Commander is capable of handling the BIG jets. Get a grip on your selves as this is simply a figment of your over active imagination.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,611
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From: Gold Coast
Not wanting to stir this up any more, but shouldn't incorrect rotation on takeoff by any crew member be completely sorted out in the simulator? I would have thought that special attention to such things would be part of the training & testing programme on an aircraft such as the 777, A240, etc as they have very long fuselages.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 0
From: USofA
Proper rotation techniques are taught in initail training but like everything else, events beyond the norm do happen. I'll repeat it again just incase you missed the first post. "Pulling on the pole" is usually not the reason for a tail strike. There are many other issues that come into play.
!
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
From: N 06/W 75
Well, for what I read, IMO, a flight with Capt. 411A would be quite a learning experience, certainly you have a personality that somehow resembles that of one my favourite instructors back in flight school. Surely the best flights were made with that instructor.
You might remember an Colombian MD-82 crashing nearby the Colombia-Venezuela border some 4 years ago...he almost had to fly that flight. He flew the airplane from Medellín (Home base) to Panama City, and stayed in a hotel there...the next leg, Panama City to Martinique was the one that crashed.
He was the one who once in my very early hours said to me while landing at MDE "If you cover the runway with the airplane nose, it's time to go-around". Don't know if such an "adagio" applies to other types...
You might remember an Colombian MD-82 crashing nearby the Colombia-Venezuela border some 4 years ago...he almost had to fly that flight. He flew the airplane from Medellín (Home base) to Panama City, and stayed in a hotel there...the next leg, Panama City to Martinique was the one that crashed.
He was the one who once in my very early hours said to me while landing at MDE "If you cover the runway with the airplane nose, it's time to go-around". Don't know if such an "adagio" applies to other types...
