Approach Briefing

[MU3001A]

Sure, I would remember ALL of that! NOT!

Which is why that is what is written on the crib sheet on my yoke clip. An extract of the essentials unique to this approach, everything else is pretty much standard stuff.

[Intruder]

Never mind briefing. Lets start with just reading the chart correctly. Then we would not have;
. . .

If you have to fly the full approach (no vectors to final), you may have to do a procedure turn or a dogleg path

There is no procedure turn published. The full procedure from the IBZ utilises a racetrack procedure.

Say what?!?

The procedure turn from the IBZ NDB IAF is clearly depicted on the profile! How can you say there is no procedure turn published, then say there is a procedure turn that is a racetrack?!?

[CommandB]

A procedure turn and "racetrack" are two different things... look it up to avoid ambiguities in the f/d!

[MU3001A]

A procedure turn and "racetrack" are two different things

On that side of the pond maybe, not over here.

[flite idol]

Procedure turn vs procedure hold for coarse reversal.

[MU3001A]

Procedure turn vs procedure hold for coarse reversal.

Over here there a 3 types of PT. The standard procedure turn where pretty much anything goes, in order to effect a course reversal. Then two that must be flown exactly as depicted, the teardrop (now rarely used) and the holding pattern.

[9.G]

to dispel apprehensions there are two IAF therefore two possible approaches:

a straight in one from 20 DME depicted as IAF
race track on over IBZ NDB depicted as well as IAF. IT'S a RACETRACK

dependable on the IAF clearance one will have to fly the procedure accordingly.

Cheers.

[Checkboard]

Would I have any questions?

Normally, I toss it down on the center console, and say...any questions?

Why have you not set the course bars yet? Oh - forgot? Have you mis-dialled that frequency - or did you intend that? I haven't been here before, how are we joining the approach? Vectors? The full racetrack procedure? If we are flying an arc, how do you intend to do that? Use a VOR, then change frequencies for the ILS? If we have to hold for traffic or weather, where will you do that? How much holding fuel do we have? At what point in time will you want to divert? And to where? If we get a windshear warning, will you immediately go-around, or will you assess the performance first?

None of this is on the chart, 411A - it's why professionals brief.

An example:

The pilot in command was a former airline pilot with 10,108 hours total flight experience, and 2,591 hours on the Westwind aircraft. The copilot had 3,747 hours total flight experience, most of which was conducted in helicopters. He had 80 hours of experience on the Westwind. The pilot in command was the handling pilot for the flight.

The Captain's Brief:
"We’ll go down to forty-three hundred to there and if you can wind in thirty-four fifty - and when we - when we get over there wind in twenty-seven eighty - that’ll be the minimum - we’ll see how it looks - for a giggle - ah - you can put the steps in now too if you wouldn’t mind - but you only need to put the steps in below the lowest safe."

The aircraft hit the ridge in clear air, and all three aboard (whom I knew) were killed.

[Jumbo Driver]

I would have thought the way this thread discussion has progressed itself illustrates the need for a concise professional briefing at top-of-descent, prior to starting the approach.

In my opinion, Bealzebub and fireflybob both have it about right.

I would like to think that 411A was being tongue-in-cheek when he made his first reply ... but maybe he wasn't ...

Ibiza LOC/ILS 24 is not a straightforward approach and, for example, at least some mention of which navaids are to be used to define which waypoints, the limits to be used and the go-around procedure would be both sensible and professional. Weather and terrain should also be ingredients to the brief. I am not in favour of verbose briefings but neither is it appropriate just to

"... toss it down on the center console, and say...any questions?"

That is just not a professional attitude in my book - and especially so if there is only one chart available, which is itself poor aviation practice for a multi-crew environment.


JD

[john_tullamarine]

Those of use who have been playing in the sandpit for a while know that 411A

(a) has quite a bit of front seat experience behind him, and

(b) is VERY good at throwing a comment or two into a thread in a manner well calculated to stir up a vigorous discussion .. such as this one.

I would be very surprised if his earlier comment were not somewhat tongue in cheek.

[411A]

(b) is VERY good at throwing a comment or two into a thread in a manner well calculated to stir up a vigorous discussion .. such as this one.

Quite correct.

Especially, when I see this...

right, here's the chart, now please, brief me ...

Yes, we always do a brief discussion about the approach, well before top of descent (if possible), however....I have seen it time and again, both on line checks and in the simulator (especially the former) where there is a last minute runway change, or a different STAR announced at the last minute, or, once having been assured of radar vectors, then assigned a totally different procedure altogether etc....
that it is far better to actually be slightly more adaptable with ones planning, instead of going on and on and on (endlessly)...first I will do this, then I will do that)...and in the end, the crew does none of the original plan, changes thrown at them at the last minute, more shuffling of papers, missed ATC calles because...more briefings infinitum....IF a professional crew cannot both look at an approach chart, see the quite obvious, select navaids without having to verbalise every step....then I would suggest that they have no business in the pointy end.
200 hour wonders in the RHS excepted, with an experienced training Captain to guide the new First Officer accordingly.


Then we have...

Why have you not set the course bars yet? Oh - forgot? Have you mis-dialled that frequency - or did you intend that? I haven't been here before, how are we joining the approach? Vectors? The full racetrack procedure? If we are flying an arc, how do you intend to do that? Use a VOR, then change frequencies for the ILS? If we have to hold for traffic or weather, where will you do that? How much holding fuel do we have? At what point in time will you want to divert? And to where? If we get a windshear warning, will you immediately go-around, or will you assess the performance first?

This all comes as rather second nature to experienced crew (and that is all we hire in the first place) so....the respective poster I expect would simply not fit into our organisation...fortunately

In short, all this verbal chatter is, in many cases, totally unnecessary...after all, it is a brief....so keep it just that way...brief.
It is not an apollo moon landing.

Oh yes, we don't call it a briefing, it is called in our outfit....crew co-ordination... an old TWA expression that has worked for me, quite successfully thank you very much, for more than thirty years.

In closing, Harry Truman said it best....'If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen'.

[inner]

I think it is a good question of the first poster. Somehow i think a briefing should be like the word itself: BRIEF!! Some charts are really complicated and when i do a whole briefing of the plate, i'm sometimes wondering if the guy next to me still knows after 5 min what i've said.

[zoigberg]

Kind of agree with the previous comment - Interesting that some of the posters here had misread the plate i.e. not as simple as it looks so it's worth a decent brief if you haven't been before. And then expect vectors for a straight in final.

Oh, and check that what's in your FMC actually coincides with what's on your plate! Too often missed.

[Checkboard]

This all comes as rather second nature to experienced crew

When you have flown for a decent amount of time, you will know that nothing can be relied on as "second nature". All of those questions arose from errors I have seen on the line over the last 20 years or so.

[BOAC]

So, airvana - what would YOU pick out as important? Oh, and you have not told us the weather, which does affect the brief.

[411A]

When you have flown for a decent amount of time, you will know that nothing can be relied on as "second nature".

Have to disagree entirely.

This is the plate, same as is was last week. Any questions? No, good pre-decent checks please!

Yup, works good, lasts a long time.

Or... approaching JED, ATIS says 34C for landing.
Standard crew co-ordination for 34C, 'localizer ....., DA 226, missed approach....., standard calls.'

Now, having flown into JED since 1981, sometimes 34L is assigned at the last minute.
So, 'localizer....., DA 213, missed approach...., standard calls'.

Done.

Clearly this would not be sufficient for Checkboard...that's why he doesn't work for us, nor is it likely would he would be invited.

[Spooky 2]

Would you guys hold the posts for a minute, I need to go to the kitchen for some more pop corn!

[Checkboard]

... 411A I do notice that embarrassment is forcing your "second nature" brief to become more complex with each post.

[411A]

Not 'embarrassment'...sometimes it's necessary to wake to other guy up.

[Flying Farmer]

Adverse-Bump stop acting like a total cock, have you flown into IBZ yet?

I have with one of the posters here and have to say we didnt say "standard brief" to each other!

The reason being, it was my first time into IBZ as opposed to LGW for the second time today and 12 times this week, no offence