Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

AF447

Old 31st Aug 2009, 00:21
  #4301 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK/OZ
Posts: 1,886
Received 7 Likes on 4 Posts
securing flight recorder

There are images of the flight data recorder located in the tail of the airbus that dragged its tail in Melbourne this year.

Surprisingly the recorder was completely dislodged by the impact of the tail hitting the ground.

Would a better solution be to have it secured into a beefy bit of airframe, noting that there are not always "big bits" remaining after a crash.

Also, perhaps it needs its own "Rescue Streamer"?
"Rescue streamer" is in use with the US Navy, when stored it is an inch in diameter and 4 inches long, but deployed and unrolled it becomes a 40ft long 4 inch wide hi vis streamer that floats on the surface or can be deployed on land.
Would half a dozen streamers made with a metallic layer attached to the recorder aid the search? Even if they disintegrate on impact they would leave a trial in the direction of the the recorder?

Mickjoebill
mickjoebill is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2009, 04:35
  #4302 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: middle of nowhere
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
by cessnapuppy

I agree. In reflection, we either already know what happened or have enough data to make a reasonable assumption and start to take corrective action. Including but not limited to:
•Better dissemination of weather information
•Better training, SOP clarification and use of WX radar
•Be more proactive/aggressive in diverting around bad weather
•(my favorite: hand fly the AC through the ITCZ vs using the autopilot, so if you run into unseen weather, the crew isnt tossed an unstable aircraft into their laps when the AP runs for the hills )
•More active collaboration between 'hand off zones' (like Dakar)
•Faster response when the plane goes missing
Two reflections:

What about reprogramming the system as to allow the pilots to keep authority throughout all attempted protections? To me this should be added to your list.

You mention better training. A big AB operator wanted to do just this, but had to postpone it, because the sims were not able to simulate the presumed all pitot failures. Let me repeat that: The sims were not able to accurately simulate such a "unreliable airspeed indication" situation!!!!!

How on earth were Airbus crews trained for such a situation up to today?
Gretchenfrage is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2009, 16:19
  #4303 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: France
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
From todays Irish Times -

France wants to launch an expanded international effort to find the missing wreckage and flight recorders of the Air France jet which crashed in the Atlantic in June, the country's top crash investigator said today.

About a thousand fragments of the Airbus A330 which crashed on June 1st, killing 228 people, have been examined but most of the aircraft is still missing and it is still too early to say definitely what caused the crash, he said.

"We are going to see how we can optimise our search. We are going to expand it to other countries to bring in the maximum international dimension and seize every chance we can to avoid missing new clues," Paul-Louis Arslanian, director of France's BEA air crash investigation board, told journalists......

France seeks help with Airbus A330 search - The Irish Times - Mon, Aug 31, 2009

Bye, Barry
barrymah is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2009, 17:29
  #4304 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"We are going to see how we can optimise our search. We are going to expand it to other countries to bring in the maximum international dimension and seize every chance we can to avoid missing new clues," Paul-Louis Arslanian, director of France's BEA air crash investigation board, told journalists......
Closing the barn door after the horses have long since been gone. Pray tell where he would like to begin this search. Pitty.
wes_wall is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2009, 17:50
  #4305 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Gone Flying...
Age: 63
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Handling and Training

How on earth were Airbus crews trained for such a situation up to today?
I had my SIM Training today.
One of the things we had to deal with was, en-route ADR2 failure, followed by ADR disagreement due to Volcanic Ashes...and Double Engine Failure (A330), due to the same reason. Attitude, Attitude, Attitude (all Pitots blocked by ashes).
It seems an improbable situation. (yeah, sometimes a guy has to think twice before leaving home) But, when the "Gods" are against us, s**t happens...and it ended up with the Ditching Paper Check-List...
We also had the opportunity for a Double Hydraulic (G and B) Failure, Emergency Descent, Double FM Failure during SID at SBGR, Side Step Landing from Rwy 22R to Rwy 29 on a Direct Law and overweight status in KEWR, (just for the fun and for the handling training), abnormal attitude recovering and All Engine Out (forced) Landings.
There is a lot to do and to train. Always aiming for the benefice of experiencing without the "fear of failure", that most of us may feel during Check-Ride Sessions.
I have learned a lot during my four hour training sessions. I usually do.
And I thank my company for understanding the importance of those "training sessions".
aguadalte is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2009, 17:54
  #4306 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North America
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Pray tell where he would like to begin this search. Pitty.
They will start with the wreckage patterns and mathematically work probable search areas. For a good summary on the location of the wreckage from South African Air Flight 295 that went down in over 5 km of water in the Indian Ocean, see HelderbergSearch Paper. More difficult for Air France though, in the topography of the ocean floor and the greater uncertainty in the flight path.
BreezyDC is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2009, 22:22
  #4307 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Smile

They will start with the wreckage patterns and mathematically work probable search areas.
??? Confused...
Wouldnt they have been doing this since June? Or were the pesky Brazilians in the way?
@aguadalte I had my SIM Training today. One of the things we had to deal with was, en-route ADR2 failure, followed by ADR disagreement due to Volcanic Ashes...and Double Engine Failure (A330), due to the same reason. Attitude, Attitude, Attitude (all Pitots blocked by ashes).
It seems an improbable situation. (yeah, sometimes a guy has to think twice before leaving home) But, when the "Gods" are against us, s**t happens...and it ended up with the Ditching Paper Check-List...
Fascinating... of course with 'only' 4 hours sim time, there isnt enough time to duplicate the 3 hours of complete relative boredom with the plain on autopilot before S**T happens!
Question: Is the list of events known to you in advance? or are they 'sprung' on you by surprise? -regards
p.s. Hope you 'passed' lol
cessnapuppy is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2009, 22:29
  #4308 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SUSSEX UK
Age: 76
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
RE: HelderbergSearch Paper

The SA 747 was found at 4.4 KM in similar topography, and one year after the accident. The CVR was recovered and data extracted.

In 1980, Aerolinee Itavia Flight 870 suffered an in-flight explosion, thought to be a missile, while on route from Bologna, Italy to Palermo. Eleven years later in 1991, the company Winpol successfully located the wreckage at 3.5Km on the Tyrrhenian seabed. The FDR was recovered and data extracted, showing that just prior to the explosion the plane was in level flight and all the onboard systems were fully functional.
BJ-ENG is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2009, 04:59
  #4309 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: China (CGO)
Age: 75
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Arslanian Quotes from Xinhua

Investigators were still unable to explain the accident, Paul-Louis Arslanian, head of the French air accident investigation agency BEA, told reporters, adding that the third round of the search for the aircraft's black boxes would resume in the autumn.

More time was needed to analyze what happened in the four minutes before the crash of the plane, Arslanian said, adding that investigators would set priority targets and improve efficiency before conducting the new hunt for the black box

Pasted from <Cause of Air France crash still unknown - People's Daily Online>
ArthurBorges is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2009, 09:44
  #4310 (permalink)  
Cunning Artificer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
cwatters


Quote:
Are any companies leaving one Thales probe on or are they replacing all three? Leaving one might allow useful data to be collected?
from the link in the post above yours


Quote:
EASA stopped short of banning the Thales probes outright, allowing operators to continue to use the so-called -BA standard as a third sensor on Airbus widebodies. A regulatory official says continued use of one Thales -BA probe is "probably acceptable."
EASA Airworthiness Directives Publishing Tool issued today and effective 07 September for compliance within four months. Most airlines already did this after we saw the contents of that ACARS report. Notice that EASA consider this to be an interim measure and further AD action cannot be excluded.
It is important to act on known problems even though the full story may not be available.
Blacksheep is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2009, 14:48
  #4311 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Gone Flying...
Age: 63
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Question: Is the list of events known to you in advance? or are they 'sprung' on you by surprise? -regards
p.s. Hope you 'passed' lol
CessnaP: I don't have to pass...it's a training session, not a check-ride, and that's why it is so important! And yes, some of the events are known to us, others aren't. Part of it, is up to the TRI or to the training pilots. A briefing is done before the session and a debriefing after it. Its not a joke. Its a professional work, from which we all take lessons and above all, are offered the opportunity to know our aircraft better.
It represents an investment in flight safety, as I'm sure you will understand.
aguadalte is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2009, 00:28
  #4312 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Belgium
Age: 63
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
don't kill the messenger.....

.....just relaying what the Times online reports today:


"Air France pilots yesterday accused accident investigators of trying to cover up the cause of the Airbus crash off the coast of Brazil in June that killed 228 people after officials appeared to blame the crew for the disaster.

The airline also provoked anger after it emerged yesterday it has ordered special training for all flight crew that operate Airbus aircraft, to teach them to manage a high-altitude system failure of the kind experienced by the crew of flight AF447.

Families of the victims as well as pilots’ unions are upset at what they see as obfuscation by the state Bureau of Investigation and Analysis (BEA) and Air France over what caused the crash.

On June 1 the Airbus 330 plunged from altitude as it passed an area of storms on a flight from Rio de Janeiro to Paris. The flight recorders have not been found. Fifty bodies and about a thousand pieces of wreckage have been retrieved.

"They are trying to blame the pilots. They do not want the truth,” Gerard Arnoux, a spokesman for the Union of Air France Pilots, told The Times.

Mr Arnoux, an Airbus captain, said that the BEA was trying to overcome its previous failure to act on known faults with speed sensors, known as pitot tubes, on Airbus aircraft. “The architecture of the Airbus systems is in question,” he said.

The families have accused Air France and the BEA of dishonesty. Christophe Guillot-Noël, who heads an association of victims’ families, said that Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, the airline boss, was privately blaming the pilots. The BEA report was shaped by politics, he said.

A new deep-sea search is to start this month for the flight recorders, but data sent in the moments before the aircraft disappeared has offered an outline of the chain of events. Faulty speed readings, apparently caused by ice, prompted erratic behaviour by the automated flight system. Flying by hand, and without key data, the two pilots were unable to keep control.

In a preliminary report in July, the BEA said that the speed sensors were “a factor, but not the cause” of the crash.

In late July, the European Aviation Safety Agency ordered replacement of the French-made pitots with American ones on all long-range Airbuses.
On Monday, Paul-Louis Arslanian, the head of the BEA, blamed the crew. He said that flight crew had for decades been taught to manage faulty airspeed readings. In the case of the Air France aircraft, “certain of these fluctuations in speed [data] were perhaps not sufficiently taken into account in the training of the pilots”, he said. The BEA does not expect to reach a conclusion for 18 months.

Argument over the crash has focused on whether the crew — probably the two juniors of the three pilots on board — made errors or, as the pilots’ unions maintains, were dealing with an unflyable aircraft. “There is no doubt there was a loss of control, but the Airbus system is not supposed to let this happen,” said Mr Arnoux. “There would have been no accident without the failure of the pitot probes.” Air France’s pilots had not previously been given simulator training in speed problems at cruising altitude, where the aircraft is more prone to stall. This is now being done, at the request of all airlines’ unions. Suspicion has fallen on the highly automated design of the Airbus flight systems.

Stewarts Law, a London firm representing more than 30 of the victims’ families, said that Air France is likely to face a compensation claim of about $450 million (£278 million). “It was a prevent- able accident,” said James Healy-Pratt, a lawyer with Stewarts who is also a pilot. “It was a mix of Airbus and Air France.” "'

Until so far, DB
Dutch Bru is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2009, 06:54
  #4313 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: middle of nowhere
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
“The architecture of the Airbus systems is in question”
Very interesting article DB.

At least I feel less alone now in my pointing fingers at Airbus (design) and some AB operators (training).

I would not exclude other manufacturors and other operators of such criticism. I wrote on another thread what I think about managers, regulators and for that matter put in the manufacturors as well.
I simply think that the Airbus environement has pushed it over the limits.

As lots of us are suspecting a cover up, I truly hope that more risen voices will finally put some pressure on the industry to go for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth ......
Gretchenfrage is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2009, 07:07
  #4314 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
eh??

It almost sounds like those guys dont fly the Airbus?
“There is no doubt there was a loss of control, but the Airbus system is not supposed to let this happen,” said Mr Arnoux.
What part of dropping out of Autopilot, entering Alternate /Direct Law and saying' si longtemps, suckers! vous êtes sur votre propre!' did they NOT read in the manual? http://www.a330jam.com/documents/fltlaws.pdf

Obviously it was pilot error, since, if they had called in sick it wouldnt have happened (said with mostly a straight face)

p.s. @ aguadalte: I know! by 'pass' I meant, I hope you handled it well and didnt prang the sim, or if you did, not as much as the others

Last edited by cessnapuppy; 2nd Sep 2009 at 07:10. Reason: added side note to aguadalte :)
cessnapuppy is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2009, 10:09
  #4315 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dorset
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Analysis of Sonar data

Reply to SaturnV #4296 & cessnapuppy #4297
The time and effort needed to analyse the sonar data is an interesting point as there should be a vast amount of data. I presume that the raw sonar data is first processed by computer to produce a 2D (or 3D?) image of the ocean floor, which then has to be carefully inspected by a human in order to identify a possibly significant shape. I would guess that the scale used on such an image would need to be about 1cm to 2.5m in order for a distinctive shape such as an engine cowling, section of fuselage etc. to be recognised. In which case, a 30cm by 20cm image would represent about 0.004 sq km of the ocean floor; a sonar search over a radius of 75km would require 4.5 million such images to provide coverage of the area with a view in just one direction. Obviously a sonar scan of the front of the engine is going to stand a better chance of being recognised than one from the back. Assuming a human could process 200 images per day, and could continue to carry out this task every day for a month or so this would require 50 man years of effort or more!! Perhaps a team of 200 spending a day per week for 2 years.


An alternative approach was used on a similar data analysis task for an internet project called 'Galaxy Zoo'. The task was to analyse images of galaxies ( a million of them). The instigators of the project set up a web site where interested members of the public could download a set of images, analyse them and send the results back. They were amazed at the response they received; more than 50 million classifications were received by the project during its first year, from almost 150,000 people. The loss of AF447 has generated a lot of public interest, perhaps the 'Galaxy Zoo' approach could work here on the sonar data and complete the analysis in months rather than years? Could the Pprune network be a good starting point to get the ball rolling?
VicMel is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2009, 14:56
  #4316 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
“They are trying to blame the pilots. They do not want the truth,”
All the more reason NOT to locate the airplane, or any critical parts. As long as a finger can be pointed at someone else, or the avenue created that cause is undeterminable, no harm, no foul. Typical catch 22. Seems like we have seen this coy before, or am I dreaming?
wes_wall is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2009, 15:56
  #4317 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Turkey
Age: 77
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Air France crash inquiry could take more than year

eTurboNews | Travel and Tourism Industry News

BY UNAL BASUSTA AND WIRES, ETN STAFF WRITER

BEA director Paul-Louis Arslanian, The director of the French agency investigating the crash of Air France Flight 447 said Monday that investigators could take at least a year-and-a-half to reach a conclusion.
Arslanian said he still doesn't know exactly where the plane went down nor what caused the accident, three months after the Rio to Paris flight crashed into the Atlantic, killing all 228 people aboard.
Speaking before a gathering of aviation journalists in Paris, Arslanian said the agency has not issued a recommendation to airlines over speed measuring equipment (pitot tubes) because he didn't have evidence to justify it.
Nevertheless, since the crash both the European air safety agency and planemaker Airbus advised airlines to replace the Pitot probes used on the doomed jet with a later and more reliable model made by a US firm.
A series of automatic messages sent by the plane point to a malfunction of the speed monitors, known as Pitot tubes, which some experts think may have iced over and given false speed readings to the Air France plane's computers as it ran into a turbulent thunderstorm.
Just before Air France 447 went down, it transmitted a four-minute data reporting 5 failures and 19 warnings via its radios (ACARS). The data already gives a hint what went wrong on the airplane but the true story will come out if searchers find the black boxes.
According to messages we know the autopilot disengaged, the flight control computer failed, warning flags appeared over the primary flight data screens used by the captain and first officer and the rudder moved beyond its limits. All of it is consistent with a flight control system that was getting some bad information about how fast the airplane was moving through the air. The device that performs this task is called a pitot tube.
Emergency messages emitted shortly before the crash showed that the pilot had had to revert to manual controls and that the plane’s speed was "inconsistent".
If true airspeed is not known it is so easy to stall or overspeed the plane. That’s why the A-330 has three pitot tubes. If they all iced up, or get clogged with crystals, they won’t work – To prevent icing they are heated. There were many instances that A-330 pitot tubes were icing and failing in flight so Airbus issued a “service bulletin” recommending airlines replace them with a newer model that has a more powerful heater. It was not considered urgent – and so the pitot tubes on the doomed plane had not been replaced yet. .
After all these Mr. Arslanian still saying "If I had thought it was important to make a recommendation, I would have done it,"
The epic thunderstorm system that Air France 447 flew into would have created icing that could have overwhelmed the factory installed original pitot tubes.
These type of failures chronicled in the ACARS text messages were identical a 2008 event when an Air Caraibes A-330 flying the same route encountered same pitot tube icing. That plane was not in such severe circumstances so the crew was able to get things back under control – and lived to report it to their company and the Airbus.
As auto flight control systems fail in an Airbus, the rules that the computers live by change from “normal”, to “alternate”, to “direct” law. At each stage the computers surrender more authority to the humans – until finally all computers gives up and control no more and all outhority and controls are handed to pilots – with darkness and thunderstorm with no help at all from computers – at just the point they need them most.
Here in this event, while everything is calm and quiet aircraft getting blown around by turbulence, all major instruments become useless and hundreds of alarms some with very high pitch sounds and blinking lights all vie for pilots attention. And the need to fly with absolute minimum equipment and control.
A plane that was designed and built to be controlled by computers – with a deceptively simple cockpit becomes so complex and confusing it is almost impossible to pick the most urgent action.
In this event AF447 appeared to crossed through three key thunderstorm clusters: a small one, a new rapidly growing one, and finally a large multicell convective system. (MCS) according to AF aircraft transmission, entered a "thunderous zone with strong turbulence."
While 3 different flights deviated from the route and flew their destination safely why this crew decided to stick with the original route while they have the state of the art radar showing the thunderstorms ahead. The remains of Mr Dubois, 58, and those of one of the stewards, were among a dozen bodies identified from 50 that were found in the Atlantic off Brazil and taken to the coastal city of Recife.
The discovery of Mr Dubois’ body was seen as a possible confirmation that, in keeping with standard practice, he was resting during the cruise phase of the flight. The first and second officers would have been at the controls. It is thought that seat-belted pilots were unlikely to have been thrown clear of the tightly enclosed flight deck.
The captain should be present in the cockpit while cruising thru this very strong thunderstorm passage.

At 0210Z, one of the first ACARS transmission involved the rudder limiter. One Air France official, said the error message pertaining to the rudder limiter did not indicate it malfunctioned, but rather that it had locked itself in place because of conflicting speed readings. But, some experts theorized that based on the previous Airbus rudder separating incidents the vertical stabiliser may have been damaged. If the rudder were to move too far while travelling fast, it could shear off and take the vertical stabiliser with it. (Brazilian recovery photos do show these two pieces still joined together, when the vertical stabilizer and rudder were recovered at sea ). The recovery of these items intact would lend much support that the turbulent air may have produced a force striking the vertical stabilizer broadside on the Airbus 330 and sheered it off!!!
Arslanian said around 1,000 parts of the plane have been recovered from the Atlantic Ocean - including a nearly intact vertical stabilizer-rudder, an engine cover, uninflated life jackets, seats and kitchen items.
The Brazilian authorities have yet to send detailed information on the results of the autopsies, although the BEA is working with general information obtained from French authorities, he said.
Arslanian says investigators are gearing up for a third phase of searching, over a wider area, which could cost tens of millions of euros and start before the end of the year. Airbus has offered to help fund the search.
A preliminary report into the crash said the plane hit the ocean intact and belly first at a high rate of speed. But without the flight recorders, investigators may never know fully what happened..
Relatives of the dead have angrily demanded that Air France and Airbus take responsibility for the crash and French prosecutors have opened a preliminary manslaughter investigation that could lead to negligence charges.

Hopes of finding the two flight recorders were almost finished because the locator beacons are already lost power by June 30.
Leaks from Air France and pilots’ unions indicated that the airline was aware earlier than it has publicly admitted that there was a problem with the speed instruments on the fleet of long-range A330 and A340 aircraft. At accident time Air France was already in the process of replacing the pitot tubes.
Air France 447 was the 36th flight in which there had been known faulty speed readings on the A330 and A340 series operated by various airlines, said Eurocockpit, a French-language website run by pilots, including Air France crew.
The previous incidents followed the same pattern as those reported by AF447, except that the pilots were able to recover control and return to normal flight.
Because of the storm conditions maintaining control in AF447 would have been a monumental task, the website said. We have consulted the [Air France] pilots who had these pitot problems. All told us that it took a big immediate dose of lucidity to avoid distraction by the stall warnings which came with the incident and face up to the deluge of alarms.”
noelbaba is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2009, 16:12
  #4318 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Patterson, NY
Age: 66
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@noelbaba,

The rudder moved beyond its limits? I've not seen that before, has anyone else?
What would have been the source of such a statement? Is this something contained in the ACARS messages? I consider the entire report, in eTurboNews, complete conjecture, no?
rgbrock1 is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2009, 16:25
  #4319 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Petaluma
Posts: 330
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The Benefit of the doubt is generally reserved for those who deserve it.
A known a/s sensing problem, a dangerous reliance on autoflight, an "untrained" (sic) aircrew with one (senior) member missing, Radar left to 'bon chance' (Gourgeon). I have slammed each of these for eight weeks, only now does Arslanian muster the troops (other people's money) to 'leave no stone unturned'. ?? The initial release of 'official' information was a laughingstock; from the git go the crew were being set up, the a/c 'protected' (politically as well as technologically), and the line was deflecting everything that smelled like responsibility toward the 'unlucky' flight deck. This is 'news' ?

rgbrock1- Of course the Fin moved beyond limits. The question is 'when'. It is an open question for those who are not an easy sell.
Will Fraser is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2009, 17:21
  #4320 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: France
Age: 70
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by aguadalte
I had my SIM Training today.
One of the things we had to deal with was, en-route ADR2 failure, followed by ADR disagreement due to Volcanic Ashes...and Double Engine Failure (A330), due to the same reason. Attitude, Attitude, Attitude (all Pitots blocked by ashes).
It seems an improbable situation. (yeah, sometimes a guy has to think twice before leaving home) But, when the "Gods" are against us, s**t happens...and it ended up with the Ditching Paper Check-List...
.........
Thinking back to that very interesting Air Caraibe incident report (see my post at http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...ml#post5079036 and the several discussion posts either side of it), what in the training / experience of those guys led them to reject the STALL warning, and what might have been the consequences of their not rejecting it?

AGB
Gary Brown is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.