737 NG (700 or 800) Fuel Over Destination Planning
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737 NG (700 or 800) Fuel Over Destination Planning
For those that fly or have recently flown this type could you please see if you can answer some of the following questions. Please try and answer in kilograms (kg).
1) What was/is your company 'minimum' flight planned fuel over the destination airport?
2) How long before you would conduct the flight was the flight planned?
3) What variations if any are applied between the two varients (i.e 700 & 800)?
4) What (if any) would the PIC normally take above the company planned fuel?
5) At what level of fuel has boeing or your respective engineering department set the 'low fuel level' lights to trigger in aircraft fleet?
Whilst answering the above, the assumption is that the weather/notams at departure, enroute, and at the destination are all ok and additional fuel (other than planned) for holding etc need not be considered at the planning stage.
Basically where I come from, our company plan us to arrive in both varients with 2400kg over the destination! This quite often is interpreted as 3000kg as a starting point and worked upward from there (i.e 'for the wife and the kids').
Hoping to get some answers from the guy's/girl's whom work for the bigger operators of this type, like Ryanair, Southwest, American, Continental, Qantas, Virgin Blue, KLM etc
Thanks
Gunger
1) What was/is your company 'minimum' flight planned fuel over the destination airport?
2) How long before you would conduct the flight was the flight planned?
3) What variations if any are applied between the two varients (i.e 700 & 800)?
4) What (if any) would the PIC normally take above the company planned fuel?
5) At what level of fuel has boeing or your respective engineering department set the 'low fuel level' lights to trigger in aircraft fleet?
Whilst answering the above, the assumption is that the weather/notams at departure, enroute, and at the destination are all ok and additional fuel (other than planned) for holding etc need not be considered at the planning stage.
Basically where I come from, our company plan us to arrive in both varients with 2400kg over the destination! This quite often is interpreted as 3000kg as a starting point and worked upward from there (i.e 'for the wife and the kids').
Hoping to get some answers from the guy's/girl's whom work for the bigger operators of this type, like Ryanair, Southwest, American, Continental, Qantas, Virgin Blue, KLM etc
Thanks
Gunger
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3 operators of 737s, first 2 museum pieces and Classics. Last one small with 3/700, not 800
1) CMR (f. reserve+div) required at touchdown for planning purposes. FOD not specified (cannot be, surely?) What happens when CMR is 2600kg? Hopefully YOUR planned 'minimum' of 2400kg is increased?
2) By Ops about 1:30, by crew at report 1:00
3) Don't know
4) How long is a piece of string?
5) 700 set at 907kg (ETOPS setting) for both ETOPS and non-ETOPS routes, so often 'LOW' lit and QRH actioned (discussed, at least
)..
1) CMR (f. reserve+div) required at touchdown for planning purposes. FOD not specified (cannot be, surely?) What happens when CMR is 2600kg? Hopefully YOUR planned 'minimum' of 2400kg is increased?
2) By Ops about 1:30, by crew at report 1:00
3) Don't know
4) How long is a piece of string?
5) 700 set at 907kg (ETOPS setting) for both ETOPS and non-ETOPS routes, so often 'LOW' lit and QRH actioned (discussed, at least
)..
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Ryanair are never planned to arrive with less then 2000Kgs. We can take up to 300Kgs without needing to provide an explanation. More then 300kgs requires a note of explanation on the Voyage Report.
The Flight plans are in the system usually a couple of hours beforehand.
The Flight plans are in the system usually a couple of hours beforehand.
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1. No company min, but a good number is 2500kg over the top.
2. for the first flight of the day usually 1 hour.
3. Only flew 800's (300 & 400's to).
4. That depended on the age, experience and nut size.
5. Can't remember but just over the 900kg mark.
2. for the first flight of the day usually 1 hour.
3. Only flew 800's (300 & 400's to).
4. That depended on the age, experience and nut size.
5. Can't remember but just over the 900kg mark.
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latetonite - 2 of us, then
FOD is MEANINGLESS as posted by Gunger Din.
EG What is 'over-head destination'? Cruise level, 1500' as per FMC basic calculations, 10 mile final, where???
EG IF you mean an ABSOLUTE minimum REGARDLESS of CMR, REGARDLESS of weather, REGARDLESS of approach procedure, then say so. Even more meaningless!
This all harks back to the thread about not operating into 'LOW' fuel (<1812kg) on the NG. That one died a death.....
FOD is MEANINGLESS as posted by Gunger Din.EG What is 'over-head destination'? Cruise level, 1500' as per FMC basic calculations, 10 mile final, where???
EG IF you mean an ABSOLUTE minimum REGARDLESS of CMR, REGARDLESS of weather, REGARDLESS of approach procedure, then say so. Even more meaningless!
This all harks back to the thread about not operating into 'LOW' fuel (<1812kg) on the NG. That one died a death.....
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latetonite
Fuel on board at touchdown!
Others
Thanks, very interesting...
BOAC
Basically the plans are to 1500ft over the destination with 2400kg, then there's an arrival burn built into the plan which is calculated from 1500ft to touchdown. It takes into account the most unfavorable runway configuration and approach which burns the most amount of fuel to touchdown. Hopefully that makes sense.
In regards to your 1st question... Yes it would be up to the PIC to make the necesssary adjustments to the 2400kg at departure time minus 1 hour as the company may have planned the flight several hours prior!!
Just a question... Are you saying that for every flight planned, there was always fuel uplifted for a diversion?
Fuel on board at touchdown!
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Thanks, very interesting...
BOAC
Basically the plans are to 1500ft over the destination with 2400kg, then there's an arrival burn built into the plan which is calculated from 1500ft to touchdown. It takes into account the most unfavorable runway configuration and approach which burns the most amount of fuel to touchdown. Hopefully that makes sense.
In regards to your 1st question... Yes it would be up to the PIC to make the necesssary adjustments to the 2400kg at departure time minus 1 hour as the company may have planned the flight several hours prior!!
Just a question... Are you saying that for every flight planned, there was always fuel uplifted for a diversion?
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Gunger - I can quite understand ltn's frustration as your post does not make sense to pilots! This bit
is just plain illogical UNLESS you always have CMRs less than 16/1800kg or so - if so you should state that. At least ltn claims to be just 'a pilot'! Your profile gives us no clues, so in order that we can sensibly address your question - state your type, seat and experience please plus the regulatory framework (eg EU OPS) under which you operate. Otherwise we are just going to dig up all those old bones of whingers about company fuel policies who basically have little or no idea about what being a 'Captain' is all about. In the UK, the ANO spells out the Captain's responibility for fuel planning and as ltn pointed out to you, YOUR Ops Manual, Part A, Chapter 8. (Under EU OPS) should/will re-state that requirement. Over to you?
To answer your last question, yes, although I have on occasion given consideration to the option available under EU OPS for fuel planning.
Given the parameters for destination conditions you state in post #1, WHY would your PIC need to 'replan' the company plan just because it is a few hours old?
our company plan us to arrive in both varients with 2400kg over the destination!
To answer your last question, yes, although I have on occasion given consideration to the option available under EU OPS for fuel planning.
Given the parameters for destination conditions you state in post #1, WHY would your PIC need to 'replan' the company plan just because it is a few hours old?
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Guys,
Gunger is correct! It's how things are done in Australia. 2400 Kg for both the 700/800 is what VB use. The system they use at this stage cannot calculate a time figure so it use a KG figure.
Gunger is correct! It's how things are done in Australia. 2400 Kg for both the 700/800 is what VB use. The system they use at this stage cannot calculate a time figure so it use a KG figure.
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QANTAS Planned fuel (not less than): 2500KG over destination. Most Guys in Good weather add 500kg - or plan to arrive with 3000 KG over head.
Plans for entire day are given at sign on - about 1hr before departure. Early am starts - the plans may have been prepared the night before by dispatch.
Plans can be easily redone if required - but usually adding fuel fixes most problems within reason.
Plans for entire day are given at sign on - about 1hr before departure. Early am starts - the plans may have been prepared the night before by dispatch.
Plans can be easily redone if required - but usually adding fuel fixes most problems within reason.
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BEWARE confusion here!! MD11 - that is NOT a minimum! That figure is for GROUND USE only of ELEC hydraulic pumps. There is no associated airborne minimum and you can taxy below that with the ELEC pumps OFF.
At last we seem to be getting some sense (but not from Gunger!). SO:-
1) Its an Aussie thing
2) It is an absolute MINIMUM overhead at 1500' and not a PLANNED fuel.
I've never come across it, but it makes sense to me if that is your comfort zone. Problem solved? Just a pity we didn't get that information at the beginning.
At last we seem to be getting some sense (but not from Gunger!). SO:-
1) Its an Aussie thing
2) It is an absolute MINIMUM overhead at 1500' and not a PLANNED fuel.
I've never come across it, but it makes sense to me if that is your comfort zone. Problem solved? Just a pity we didn't get that information at the beginning.
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Telstar, W00Kiee, bluloo, and BPA... thank you
BOAC - As you are currently flying the 737, what is your preferred fuel on board at your destination after considering my first post?
With all thing's being normal;
- I would imagine your company doesn't want you to plan to land with 1000kg, or 10000kg for that matter.
- Your regulator doesn't want you to plan to land with 500kg,
Therefore all i'm asking you is what fuel do you like to arrive at your destination with in your 737NG? Are you more than satisfied with whatever your company set's as it's minimum (if so, what is it?). Or do you put on extra (if so, how much?)
BOAC - As you are currently flying the 737, what is your preferred fuel on board at your destination after considering my first post?
With all thing's being normal;
- I would imagine your company doesn't want you to plan to land with 1000kg, or 10000kg for that matter.
- Your regulator doesn't want you to plan to land with 500kg,
Therefore all i'm asking you is what fuel do you like to arrive at your destination with in your 737NG? Are you more than satisfied with whatever your company set's as it's minimum (if so, what is it?). Or do you put on extra (if so, how much?)
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GUNGER,
I guess I don't understand your question. according to our company
(jar ops) you have to have enough to fly to dest. then alt and then hold for 30 minutes. so what you have at your destination depends on how far the alt is. Generally 30 min at alt is 1200kgs. However we use LIDO and the calcultations vary a bit from time to time. Another minimum we use, in case we burn more fuel to fly to dest and then to alt is to arrive at least with min reserve ( the 30 minutes) + 15 minutes. In case of arriving with less than that amount it is strongly recommended to divert enroute (goes back to the little jar ops rule that you don't have to have an alternate as other conditions are met but then you have to raise your final reserve fuel to 45 minutes) So that amount would be +-1800kgs.
As your question:arrive overhead, what do you mean? over the IAF. That would depend on how long it takes to complete the app. But still to have the final reserve + alt, or final at alt. This is KLM, there is no specific number, only a specific time expressed in fuel.
As BOAC ( I think) said the final min (30 minutes) is not enough to satisfy the minimum for operation of the ELEC HYD pumps. I have never been in that situation though. Brings me to a question (BOAC) would you in fact turn those pumps off? The question has come once in a while and the opinions vary.
Greetings
I guess I don't understand your question. according to our company
(jar ops) you have to have enough to fly to dest. then alt and then hold for 30 minutes. so what you have at your destination depends on how far the alt is. Generally 30 min at alt is 1200kgs. However we use LIDO and the calcultations vary a bit from time to time. Another minimum we use, in case we burn more fuel to fly to dest and then to alt is to arrive at least with min reserve ( the 30 minutes) + 15 minutes. In case of arriving with less than that amount it is strongly recommended to divert enroute (goes back to the little jar ops rule that you don't have to have an alternate as other conditions are met but then you have to raise your final reserve fuel to 45 minutes) So that amount would be +-1800kgs.
As your question:arrive overhead, what do you mean? over the IAF. That would depend on how long it takes to complete the app. But still to have the final reserve + alt, or final at alt. This is KLM, there is no specific number, only a specific time expressed in fuel.
As BOAC ( I think) said the final min (30 minutes) is not enough to satisfy the minimum for operation of the ELEC HYD pumps. I have never been in that situation though. Brings me to a question (BOAC) would you in fact turn those pumps off? The question has come once in a while and the opinions vary.
Greetings
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Gunger - CMR is enough at touchdown, less if pushed and conditions are IAW EU and company requirements. I would prefer to have 2-300kg more and normally do as I tend to make fuel.
Flyburg - yes, once on the ground CLEAR OF THE RUNWAY with less than 760kg in relevant tank..There is no rush, you will not explode! Remember the restriction is on ground operation of the pumps.
Re 'overhead', Gunger did amplify to say 1500' over field.
Flyburg - yes, once on the ground CLEAR OF THE RUNWAY with less than 760kg in relevant tank..There is no rush, you will not explode! Remember the restriction is on ground operation of the pumps.
Re 'overhead', Gunger did amplify to say 1500' over field.
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Just for clarification - the definition of Fuel Over Destination our company uses is:
The quantity of fuel planned to be remaining at 1,500ft at the destination airport. It equals Preflight Fuel Order minus Taxi and Flight Fuel.
So the planned fuel over head will be FFR (fixed fuel reserve) + VFR + Approach Fuel (1500' overhead to touchdown).
For the 737 -400/800 - approach fuel used is 300kg.
(So I think from memory FFR is approx 1.1 tonnes + VFR + 300kg, which will usually be less than 2.5 tonnes. So he difference would be contingency or planned additional to bring the figure up to 2.5 tonnes overhead)
Of course if weather dictates an alternate then that will be included - but we do not carry automatically carry alternates if the Wx is ok.
I believe our company tried to implement LIDO - but our fuel policy is so different that LIDO couldnt be adapted.....
(As an aside they did a sim exercise arriving over destination with 2500KG - and gave a gear problem during approach- (main gear on 1 side wouldnt come down) - 2500kg- gives you virtually no time to troubleshoot. Basically you have time to run the checklist and set up for the next approach with the gear still partially jammed up - committed to partial gear up landing. Hardly any time to prepare the cabin...... whilst the outcome may be the same with extra fuel - it certainly is not a comfortable feeling knowing you couldnt trouble shoot or have more time to prepare the cabin.)
It certainly made me want to arrive with a bit more than 2500kg.
The quantity of fuel planned to be remaining at 1,500ft at the destination airport. It equals Preflight Fuel Order minus Taxi and Flight Fuel.
So the planned fuel over head will be FFR (fixed fuel reserve) + VFR + Approach Fuel (1500' overhead to touchdown).
For the 737 -400/800 - approach fuel used is 300kg.
(So I think from memory FFR is approx 1.1 tonnes + VFR + 300kg, which will usually be less than 2.5 tonnes. So he difference would be contingency or planned additional to bring the figure up to 2.5 tonnes overhead)
Of course if weather dictates an alternate then that will be included - but we do not carry automatically carry alternates if the Wx is ok.
I believe our company tried to implement LIDO - but our fuel policy is so different that LIDO couldnt be adapted.....
(As an aside they did a sim exercise arriving over destination with 2500KG - and gave a gear problem during approach- (main gear on 1 side wouldnt come down) - 2500kg- gives you virtually no time to troubleshoot. Basically you have time to run the checklist and set up for the next approach with the gear still partially jammed up - committed to partial gear up landing. Hardly any time to prepare the cabin...... whilst the outcome may be the same with extra fuel - it certainly is not a comfortable feeling knowing you couldnt trouble shoot or have more time to prepare the cabin.)
It certainly made me want to arrive with a bit more than 2500kg.
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Blueloo is absolutely right, there is not much time. However, fuel 'planning' for a gear malfunction has never been in the computations. The Classic QRH used to say you need at least 3800kg to complete the drill and if you have less just chuck it on the ground as it is but I think the NG series has 'forgottten' that!
but I think the NG series has 'forgottten' that!
Last edited by BOAC; 31st May 2009 at 08:19.
