Some questions for Simulator Checks - good for all
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Some questions for Simulator Checks - good for all
Hello fellow aviators.
I always wanted to know more about these. Can you help?
Should we maintain present heading or turn before an emergency descent.
I say turn, my SIM instructor said keep heading.
Most regulations e.g. RVSM, NATS, Specific country and Europe emergency procedures, are clear about innitiating a turn befre descent, so why some very senior and experienced SIM instructors say different?
Other point open for discussion is: You have just stopped after a heavy weight RTO near V1. Will you set Parking Brake? Will it hold? Commence PAX EVAC without parking brake? Is it likely that brakes will be incandescent or even on fire?
Some people stop the ACFT when there is fire, taking a cross wind in consideration others say just stop on the center line. What would you do?
Is there a new standard fraseology for TCAS RA maneuvers? Someone said it is not TCAS CLIMB or TCAS DESCENT anymore but RA CLIMB/DESCENT. Never read this.
If there is any publication about any of those points, please, give us the link.
Nice flights to all! (REAL and SIMULATED)
I always wanted to know more about these. Can you help?
Should we maintain present heading or turn before an emergency descent.
I say turn, my SIM instructor said keep heading.
Most regulations e.g. RVSM, NATS, Specific country and Europe emergency procedures, are clear about innitiating a turn befre descent, so why some very senior and experienced SIM instructors say different?
Other point open for discussion is: You have just stopped after a heavy weight RTO near V1. Will you set Parking Brake? Will it hold? Commence PAX EVAC without parking brake? Is it likely that brakes will be incandescent or even on fire?
Some people stop the ACFT when there is fire, taking a cross wind in consideration others say just stop on the center line. What would you do?
Is there a new standard fraseology for TCAS RA maneuvers? Someone said it is not TCAS CLIMB or TCAS DESCENT anymore but RA CLIMB/DESCENT. Never read this.
If there is any publication about any of those points, please, give us the link.
Nice flights to all! (REAL and SIMULATED)
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Greetings,
For emergency descent, please refere to Jepessen part C, emergency and just apply the laid down procedure as per the area you are flying within, Europe for example says turn away from the traffic, talk to ATC (if you can) and then descent (O21 mask and crew com always applies first)
Your intructor did it the Boeing way "keep heading"
After RTO, you set the park brake on, PA "cabin crew at station" and deal with the emergency and ground evac if required.
Now if no ground evac is NOT required, then look at the brake temp, to be sure that it safe to resume taxy,AND be able to stop again.
remember that brakes transform cynetic energy into heat energy using friction, and have a heat absorbtion capacity that IS NOT unlimited.
The worst that can happen is that the fuse will melt and the tyres will deflate, remembering that your number one priority is passenger/crew safety, brake can burn, be glowing tyre can burst, your priority is ....
Engine fire, RTO and wind from the .... this emergency is time critical, but there is always a smart A##S who wants to outsmart and impress by saying that the wind is from the ... I will then turn ... I must admit though that in a movie, it will have some effect, in real life, different ball game, cross wind meaning you will turn at 90 deg from the runway, or run the risk of have a part of the aircraft outside the runway (which doesnot have the strenght to sustain the aircraft weight....
As far as I am concern, I include the wind information to the CSD, during the NITES briefing, and deal with the priority.
I never heard of RA CLIMB, baring in mind that RA only trigger reflexive maneuvers, ATC are familiar with TCAS, whereas RA
I doubt it, on top on that RA will sound different, depending on who is saying it 
For emergency descent, please refere to Jepessen part C, emergency and just apply the laid down procedure as per the area you are flying within, Europe for example says turn away from the traffic, talk to ATC (if you can) and then descent (O21 mask and crew com always applies first)
Your intructor did it the Boeing way "keep heading"
After RTO, you set the park brake on, PA "cabin crew at station" and deal with the emergency and ground evac if required.
Now if no ground evac is NOT required, then look at the brake temp, to be sure that it safe to resume taxy,AND be able to stop again.
remember that brakes transform cynetic energy into heat energy using friction, and have a heat absorbtion capacity that IS NOT unlimited.
The worst that can happen is that the fuse will melt and the tyres will deflate, remembering that your number one priority is passenger/crew safety, brake can burn, be glowing tyre can burst, your priority is ....
Engine fire, RTO and wind from the .... this emergency is time critical, but there is always a smart A##S who wants to outsmart and impress by saying that the wind is from the ... I will then turn ... I must admit though that in a movie, it will have some effect, in real life, different ball game, cross wind meaning you will turn at 90 deg from the runway, or run the risk of have a part of the aircraft outside the runway (which doesnot have the strenght to sustain the aircraft weight....
As far as I am concern, I include the wind information to the CSD, during the NITES briefing, and deal with the priority.
I never heard of RA CLIMB, baring in mind that RA only trigger reflexive maneuvers, ATC are familiar with TCAS, whereas RA
I doubt it, on top on that RA will sound different, depending on who is saying it
Last edited by kijangnim; 11th Apr 2009 at 11:11. Reason: Typos
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As for TCAS the correct phraseology according to PANS-ATM (Procedures for Air Navigation Services, ICAO Doc. 4444 Fifteenth Edidtion 2007-ATM/501) states the following:
That excerpt is copied from the Eurocontrol ACAS Site.
Circumstances:
... after a flight crew starts to deviate from any ATC clearance or instruction to comply with an ACAS resolution advisory (RA) (Pilot and controller interchange):
PILOT: [callsign] TCAS RA;
ATC: [callsign] ROGER;
... after the response to an ACAS RA is completed and a return to the ATC clearance or instruction is initiated (Pilot and controller interchange):
PILOT: [callsign] CLEAR OF CONFLICT, RETURNING TO (assigned clearance);
ATC: [callsign] ROGER (or alternative instructions);
… after the response to an ACAS RA is completed and the assigned ATC clearance or instruction has been resumed (Pilot and controller interchange):
PILOT: [callsign] CLEAR OF CONFLICT (assigned clearance) RESUMED;
ATC: [callsign] ROGER (or alternative instructions);
… after an ATC clearance or instruction contradictory to the ACAS RA is received, the flight crew will follow the RA and inform ATC directly (Pilot and controller interchange):
PILOT: [callsign] UNABLE, TCAS RA;
ATC: [callsign] ROGER;
... after a flight crew starts to deviate from any ATC clearance or instruction to comply with an ACAS resolution advisory (RA) (Pilot and controller interchange):
PILOT: [callsign] TCAS RA;
ATC: [callsign] ROGER;
... after the response to an ACAS RA is completed and a return to the ATC clearance or instruction is initiated (Pilot and controller interchange):
PILOT: [callsign] CLEAR OF CONFLICT, RETURNING TO (assigned clearance);
ATC: [callsign] ROGER (or alternative instructions);
… after the response to an ACAS RA is completed and the assigned ATC clearance or instruction has been resumed (Pilot and controller interchange):
PILOT: [callsign] CLEAR OF CONFLICT (assigned clearance) RESUMED;
ATC: [callsign] ROGER (or alternative instructions);
… after an ATC clearance or instruction contradictory to the ACAS RA is received, the flight crew will follow the RA and inform ATC directly (Pilot and controller interchange):
PILOT: [callsign] UNABLE, TCAS RA;
ATC: [callsign] ROGER;
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hi,
It is clear that descending right on the track in the airway is a way to meet somebody during the descent. But if you had a direct clearance offtrack you may stay on heading since you're supposed to have a unique track (actually some direct tracks are sometimes a kind of unpublished airways). the behavior is finally to avoid any congested area. TCAS display could be a useful tool to helps choosing a track
always breaks ON after rejected take-off. you must analyse the situation at that time and get rid of any movement of the aircraft to do it. forget the brakes blockage. you will think of it after you decide to not evacuate.
let's consider you have pure crosswind. think of a big airplane to park cross on the runway (time to do it) and then no vehicles are able to circulate on the concrete that might not help for fire (and the rest) assistance. thus stay on the centerline.
to finish there is a new ICAO phraseology for the TCAS, from nov 2007.
search for PANS-ATM Amendment n°5 on internet
It is clear that descending right on the track in the airway is a way to meet somebody during the descent. But if you had a direct clearance offtrack you may stay on heading since you're supposed to have a unique track (actually some direct tracks are sometimes a kind of unpublished airways). the behavior is finally to avoid any congested area. TCAS display could be a useful tool to helps choosing a track
always breaks ON after rejected take-off. you must analyse the situation at that time and get rid of any movement of the aircraft to do it. forget the brakes blockage. you will think of it after you decide to not evacuate.
let's consider you have pure crosswind. think of a big airplane to park cross on the runway (time to do it) and then no vehicles are able to circulate on the concrete that might not help for fire (and the rest) assistance. thus stay on the centerline.
to finish there is a new ICAO phraseology for the TCAS, from nov 2007.
search for PANS-ATM Amendment n°5 on internet
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Thanks to all for the prompt reply.
Denti, I have downloaded the Doc. you sent. Thank you much. It is a good one.
About the brakes, and crosswind, I would do the same you said, the problem is that Boeing says in the B744 QHR Man. 1.3 (April 1, 2008)
REJECTED TAKEOFF
Consider the following:
- wind direction in case of fire
- not setting parking brake unless passenger evacuation is necessary.
So, Boeing wants me to consider turning a B744 in the middle of a 60, or worse, 45m RWY for to avoid wind blowing a fire towards the fuselage. The distance from the engines to the fuselage is considerable for an eng. fire flame to reach it. As I can't ask Boeing why, I ask the world best pliots in PPrune.
I am curious about what Airbus A340/380 (eqv to B744) dictates.
Please, don`t stop, let's have more opinions and comments
Thanks again
Denti, I have downloaded the Doc. you sent. Thank you much. It is a good one.
About the brakes, and crosswind, I would do the same you said, the problem is that Boeing says in the B744 QHR Man. 1.3 (April 1, 2008)
REJECTED TAKEOFF
Consider the following:
- wind direction in case of fire
- not setting parking brake unless passenger evacuation is necessary.
So, Boeing wants me to consider turning a B744 in the middle of a 60, or worse, 45m RWY for to avoid wind blowing a fire towards the fuselage. The distance from the engines to the fuselage is considerable for an eng. fire flame to reach it. As I can't ask Boeing why, I ask the world best pliots in PPrune.
I am curious about what Airbus A340/380 (eqv to B744) dictates.
Please, don`t stop, let's have more opinions and comments
Thanks again
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There's been recent guidance from the CAA about an aborted take-off with a fire:
FODCOM 08/09 | Publications | CAA
FODCOM 08/09 | Publications | CAA
Warning Toxic!
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In my opinion, if you have an instructor who says it should be done his way, do it his way, otherwise do it how you think right!
Heavy weight RTO in a 747? The wheels are likely to go. You are very likely to evacuate. Damn everything else, set the brakes- you don't want that aeroplane moving with people coming down slides! So what if the brakes overheat? They are anyway! Maintenance issues should not affect human life! Set brakes and leave them- do you want to be standing outside and have the aeroplane start moving?
Fire and crosswind- I turn. Say to yourself
'in a headwind, turn into the on-fire engine
in a tailwind, turn away from the on-fire engine'.
We have a 737 that caught fire at Manchester that taught us in the UK that is a good idea!
TCAS RA new procedure correct. I think it is to stop confusion with calls for climb/descent by different people at the same time.
Heavy weight RTO in a 747? The wheels are likely to go. You are very likely to evacuate. Damn everything else, set the brakes- you don't want that aeroplane moving with people coming down slides! So what if the brakes overheat? They are anyway! Maintenance issues should not affect human life! Set brakes and leave them- do you want to be standing outside and have the aeroplane start moving?
Fire and crosswind- I turn. Say to yourself
'in a headwind, turn into the on-fire engine
in a tailwind, turn away from the on-fire engine'.
We have a 737 that caught fire at Manchester that taught us in the UK that is a good idea!
TCAS RA new procedure correct. I think it is to stop confusion with calls for climb/descent by different people at the same time.
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i thought the turn off the airway was more importantly to reduce the negative G on the aircraft and passengers. however, one thing I am wondering is how about LSALT? if you turned off your route in an area with high LSALT continuing on that particular heading, you won't have the proper LSALT to protect yourself.
saying TCAS RA, rather then TCAS climb/descent. I believe is to reduce confusion if you initially said TCAS Climb, but then the system revised it and then you have to make a descent instead... rather then saying descent to ATC. The initial TCAS RA just make it clear to the ATC you are following TCAS of whatever it is telling you to do.
saying TCAS RA, rather then TCAS climb/descent. I believe is to reduce confusion if you initially said TCAS Climb, but then the system revised it and then you have to make a descent instead... rather then saying descent to ATC. The initial TCAS RA just make it clear to the ATC you are following TCAS of whatever it is telling you to do.
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Originally Posted by RB
In my opinion, if you have an instructor who says it should be done his way, do it his way, otherwise do it how you think right!
On the line, do it the way 'kijangnim' says because nobody else around you (and trying to get out of your way) will know what your faddy instructor told you to do!
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Hola ricfly -
xxx
No matter how good a simulator is, it remains a training device.
And the instructor tells you what he expects you to do.
If he wants an emergency descent wings level... do as he tells you.
xxx
Like you, I would bank (say 45º) to reduce negative Gs... in real life.
And get off the airway.
Planes are close to be exactly on top of each other.
Thanks to our modern navigation systems, INS coupled to GPS...
That is what I observed these last years on oceanic routes.
In the old days, they would be close to a mile to the left or right.
xxx
RTO - do exactly as the SOPs or instructor says.
In real life, there might be other considerations for RTO.
You could have to combine SOPs and common sense.
Do not give yourself a headache in simulators. It is training environment.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
No matter how good a simulator is, it remains a training device.
And the instructor tells you what he expects you to do.
If he wants an emergency descent wings level... do as he tells you.
xxx
Like you, I would bank (say 45º) to reduce negative Gs... in real life.
And get off the airway.
Planes are close to be exactly on top of each other.
Thanks to our modern navigation systems, INS coupled to GPS...
That is what I observed these last years on oceanic routes.
In the old days, they would be close to a mile to the left or right.
xxx
RTO - do exactly as the SOPs or instructor says.
In real life, there might be other considerations for RTO.
You could have to combine SOPs and common sense.
Do not give yourself a headache in simulators. It is training environment.
xxx
Happy contrails
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As a sim instructor, I prefer in some instances where things aren't so cut and dried, that YOU tell me what YOU would do. Then I, as your instructor, can decide whether or not what you did or intended to do is according to the aircraft manufacturers' recommended procedure, consistent with published regulation, safe, wise and defendable. Remember, instructors should also be facilitators not always dictators.
Also, not all SOPs can apply in a non-standard environment or circumstance. Not all rules/regs are compatible with every situation. Yet, most line pilots will try to strictly adhere to SOPs when declaring an Emergency. Remember, the Captain has full authority during such times. It is also acknowledged in most ANOs/Regs/SOPs, etc., as to who has the final authority. Whilst I fully appreciate my comments may be misinterpreted, I centainly hope you understand I'm not advocating that you can do anything. You can do anything reasonable under the circumstance. It might be that individual experience levels play a greater role in what you might do versus what you would do in a real situation which is why you are better off in a sim/training environment to do it the way you would expect to do it were you in that situation.
As an IP, while it may make life easier for all of us, I personally hate a 'cooperate-graduate' attitude. We're supposed to be professionals, so speak up when you feel the need. Especially where the IP is incorrect or may be misinformed. Defend yourself and get into an intelligent exchange with your instructor. We don't know everything! A good one will discuss it. Admit when he's wrong whilst a bad one might cut you off. If you have a sound reason for doing something in a particular way, stand up for yourself. Should you one day find yourself in front of the NTSB/CASB/AIB, Fleet Manager, CEO, defending yourself is good practice.
Willie
Also, not all SOPs can apply in a non-standard environment or circumstance. Not all rules/regs are compatible with every situation. Yet, most line pilots will try to strictly adhere to SOPs when declaring an Emergency. Remember, the Captain has full authority during such times. It is also acknowledged in most ANOs/Regs/SOPs, etc., as to who has the final authority. Whilst I fully appreciate my comments may be misinterpreted, I centainly hope you understand I'm not advocating that you can do anything. You can do anything reasonable under the circumstance. It might be that individual experience levels play a greater role in what you might do versus what you would do in a real situation which is why you are better off in a sim/training environment to do it the way you would expect to do it were you in that situation.
As an IP, while it may make life easier for all of us, I personally hate a 'cooperate-graduate' attitude. We're supposed to be professionals, so speak up when you feel the need. Especially where the IP is incorrect or may be misinformed. Defend yourself and get into an intelligent exchange with your instructor. We don't know everything! A good one will discuss it. Admit when he's wrong whilst a bad one might cut you off. If you have a sound reason for doing something in a particular way, stand up for yourself. Should you one day find yourself in front of the NTSB/CASB/AIB, Fleet Manager, CEO, defending yourself is good practice.
Willie
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 12th Apr 2009 at 14:04.
I think a turn off the airway at the start of an emergency descent is necessary. My reasoning is that the turn reduces the risk of galley carts floating about and it gets you away from the very accurately navigated traffic below you on the airway. Turning back to parallel track about 5 miles or so displaced also keeps your LSALTs etc valid.
BUT if the instructor is set in his ways, go along with him and pass - that's what we're all in the sim to do.
BUT if the instructor is set in his ways, go along with him and pass - that's what we're all in the sim to do.
So, Boeing wants me to consider turning a B744 in the middle of a 60, or worse, 45m RWY for to avoid wind blowing a fire towards the fuselage. The distance from the engines to the fuselage is considerable for an eng. fire flame to reach it. As I can't ask Boeing why, I ask the world best pliots in PPRuNe.
In my opinion, if you have an instructor who says it should be done his way, do it his way, otherwise do it how you think right!
And the instructor tells you what he expects you to do.
If he wants an emergency descent wings level... do as he tells you.
xxx
If he wants an emergency descent wings level... do as he tells you.
xxx
It is training environment.
xxx
xxx
BUT if the instructor is set in his ways, go along with him and pass - that's what we're all in the sim to do.
A tri/tre should be flexible and willing enough to discuss the outcome and decisions made on the debriefing; if there are any open-loops he/she should consult the company about procedures (and feed back to the candidates) or the authorities on legal/law issues.
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Hola testpanel -
xxx
For the last years I have been active here on Pprune with matters of techniques, recommendations and strict observance of SOPs and pilot nerds sitting on every chapter of their manuals as they suffer a brain's atrophy, I no longer try to give much advice. I am retired as a TRE/TRI and my chair is rocking very happily doing so.
xxx
Enjoy yourself with what I wrote here in the past about airmanship and techniques. I was the first to approve deviations when warranted. Some guys, through the years even taught me better techniques. I never invented anything, and learned many things from others, even more junior pilots. Looks like nowadays I am target of the "flak" from "both sides"... Amazing that some former "guinea pigs" and other buddies still call me occasionally to get some "tips" on how to fly a 747...
xxx
You show me a AOM/QRH that is a masterpiece and as correct as the "textual" interpretation of the Bible (as claimed by some), you will have my blessings. I personally often discussed with Boeing and other instructors from other airlines, to debate (and sometimes correct) such publications. If you have other opinions, I will definitely listen to you. A bank to initiate an emergency descent is among those techniques I recommend. But if your instructor tells you to do it wings level, or roll the plane upside down, just do as the idiot says. You obviously know better and agree with you, and you know how to do, in real life, rather than in the so called "training environment". My forte was always to try to make any training session as "real life" as I could simulate the sessions. And use some "humour" if need be.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
For the last years I have been active here on Pprune with matters of techniques, recommendations and strict observance of SOPs and pilot nerds sitting on every chapter of their manuals as they suffer a brain's atrophy, I no longer try to give much advice. I am retired as a TRE/TRI and my chair is rocking very happily doing so.
xxx
Enjoy yourself with what I wrote here in the past about airmanship and techniques. I was the first to approve deviations when warranted. Some guys, through the years even taught me better techniques. I never invented anything, and learned many things from others, even more junior pilots. Looks like nowadays I am target of the "flak" from "both sides"... Amazing that some former "guinea pigs" and other buddies still call me occasionally to get some "tips" on how to fly a 747...
xxx
You show me a AOM/QRH that is a masterpiece and as correct as the "textual" interpretation of the Bible (as claimed by some), you will have my blessings. I personally often discussed with Boeing and other instructors from other airlines, to debate (and sometimes correct) such publications. If you have other opinions, I will definitely listen to you. A bank to initiate an emergency descent is among those techniques I recommend. But if your instructor tells you to do it wings level, or roll the plane upside down, just do as the idiot says. You obviously know better and agree with you, and you know how to do, in real life, rather than in the so called "training environment". My forte was always to try to make any training session as "real life" as I could simulate the sessions. And use some "humour" if need be.
xxx
Happy contrails
