Wheel Well Fire Actions....
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 1
From: AEP
Hola 411A -
xxx
Appears that some NG (Nerds/Geeks) cannot read (i.e. newspapers).
Reading ability only required for captain and flight engineer positions.
NG need coloring books and crayons to exercise their intellectual capacities.
By the way, you and I are expected to know any aircraft types and procedures.
Do you know what is the wheel well fire procedure is for a DH Dove...?
I do not know, maybe you know.
We are going to be subject of criticism by the many experts.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
Appears that some NG (Nerds/Geeks) cannot read (i.e. newspapers).
Reading ability only required for captain and flight engineer positions.
NG need coloring books and crayons to exercise their intellectual capacities.
By the way, you and I are expected to know any aircraft types and procedures.
Do you know what is the wheel well fire procedure is for a DH Dove...?
I do not know, maybe you know.
We are going to be subject of criticism by the many experts.
xxx
Happy contrails
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 615
Likes: 8
From: Middle England
OK. What about an APU fire warning 2 hours into the cruise? It's been shut down since after engine start. Ignore that or get it on the ground? We had this in our airline a few years ago and the crew lobbed into the nearest suitable.
I'd rather be safe than sorry. Get it wrong and your airline will have a lot more to worry about than the cost of a diversion!
I'd rather be safe than sorry. Get it wrong and your airline will have a lot more to worry about than the cost of a diversion!
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
What about an APU fire warning 2 hours into the cruise?
Many other potential problems, including fuel to the affected area.
Carry out the drill indicated in the QRH, and if indications are then suitable, continue toward the destination.
No need for diversion if indications are suitable.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
APU FIRE SWITCH......PULL... (F/E)
FIRE BOTTLE........DISCHARGE... (F/E)
xxx
That is it.
FIRE BOTTLE........DISCHARGE... (F/E)
xxx
That is it.
I would suggest to some of our new(er) pilots...don't make the situation more complicated than it already is....or needs to be
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 615
Likes: 8
From: Middle England
Same deal on the 75/76. My point is, if the fire warning doesn't go out after pulling the handle or dropping the gear what next? The Boeing QRH is quite clear as pointed out above.
Seems like sound advice to me.
Seems like sound advice to me.
Aviator Extraordinaire
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,396
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From: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
OK. What about an APU fire warning 2 hours into the cruise?
So my co-pilot and the FE are staring at the fire panel waiting for a fire light to illuminate. To be honest it has not sunk in yet on what has happened to me either. I tell the co-pilot to test the fire system to see if any of the bulbs had burned out, very doubtful as with dual bulbs in the lights, he does and all the lights illuminate.
Hum I think, then 'click' in my mind. I look back at the APU control panel and yep, sure enough the APU fire light is on and the APU is still running. I make sure that essential power is not being power by the APU and inform the FE that he left the APU on and to shut it down.
His immediate response was, "I turned it off before takeoff!" I replied that if so, we just had the first auto-start of an APU in Boeing history. So then he grabs the start-run switch and places into off. Of course nothing happened because the gear is up. As I am explaining this to the FE, the co-pilot grabs the throttles and starts to pull the power off. I, being an inquisitive type of person, inquired as to why he was reducing power. He replied that he was slowing down so we could put the gear down.
At this point I don't whether to laugh or cry.
Very patiently I explained to the two of them that we do not have to put the gear down (not that it would have helped to put the gear down anyway, as the APU control for the start-run control panel is on the squat switch), to put the power back to cruise and for the FE to pull the APU fire handle and see if the light goes out. He did, it did and we carried on.
When we landed the APU started and ran just fine. As there never was a fire, just an overheat condition. And yes, I inspected the APU before we started it after we landed.
To be fair, in training we had always been taught that the first indication of the APU being left on was a 'Wheel Well' fire warning, but obviously not always the case.
Oh, when we got back to home base I told the Chief Pilot that we needed to go back to the Dalfort (Braniff) school, as the new one was not doing a very good job.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,349
Likes: 845
From: Tring, UK
Wheel well fire indication in the cruise @FL390? Suitable airport(s) nearby? QRH drills + land seems like a good idea, even if it is most likely to be a false warning. Covering backsides and all that.
Same thing mid ocean or in an area with high MSA could require a bit more thought... You may not have enough fuel to make the nearest alternate without bringing the gear up again (warning or no warning) and if you're over the lumpy bits, throwing the wheels out could take you below the tops quite rapidly.
In the 777, gear down, the fuel flow is approaching twice normal at a slower speed; the aircraft ceiling comes down dramatically (as I'd expect the airframe to do!) There's potential here to create a dire situation out of an uncomfortable one.
You can't write checklists to cover all eventualities, so sometimes pilots have to fall back on logic and experience. I'm not saying ignore the QRH but IMHO you have to be aware of the direction it might take you (down!) before you follow it to the letter...
Same thing mid ocean or in an area with high MSA could require a bit more thought... You may not have enough fuel to make the nearest alternate without bringing the gear up again (warning or no warning) and if you're over the lumpy bits, throwing the wheels out could take you below the tops quite rapidly.
In the 777, gear down, the fuel flow is approaching twice normal at a slower speed; the aircraft ceiling comes down dramatically (as I'd expect the airframe to do!) There's potential here to create a dire situation out of an uncomfortable one.
You can't write checklists to cover all eventualities, so sometimes pilots have to fall back on logic and experience. I'm not saying ignore the QRH but IMHO you have to be aware of the direction it might take you (down!) before you follow it to the letter...
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
In the 777, gear down, the fuel flow is approaching twice normal at a slower speed; the aircraft ceiling comes down dramatically (as I'd expect the airframe to do!) There's potential here to create a dire situation out of an uncomfortable one.
You can't write checklists to cover all eventualities, so sometimes pilots have to fall back on logic and experience. I'm not saying ignore the QRH but IMHO you have to be aware of the direction it might take you (down!) before you follow it to the letter...
You can't write checklists to cover all eventualities, so sometimes pilots have to fall back on logic and experience. I'm not saying ignore the QRH but IMHO you have to be aware of the direction it might take you (down!) before you follow it to the letter...
Yup, that will do it.
Younger guys need to realise that sometimes...it is best not to jump to conclusions....and put yourself in a more dis-advantagious situation.
IE: Take your time and evaluate, in these scenarios.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 1
From: AEP
Emergencies
Very few EMERGENCIES require a speed contest for execution of check-list.
Best example is engine fire during takeoff.
While burning, that engine will give you full thrust for the next minute.
Long enough to get you up to a safe altitude.
xxx
When training 747 pilots, I also trained 747 flight engineers.
I often said, IMMEDIATE ACTION starts by sitting on your hands 30 seconds.
The F/E better move his seat 2 feet back and look at the entire panel.
And up-front as well, such as engine instruments.
xxx
Accomplish (PNF or F/E) the IMMEDIATE ACTION as required.
Then go to the book. And proceed slowly with REFERENCE ACTIONS.
Understand the problem before moving any switches or handles.
Especially moving from one reference paragraph to another one.
Or going from one malfunction to another.
One check list followed by another might make problems WORSE.
xxx
In 747s, check-lists that include FLAPS and FLIGHT CONTROLS can be killers.
In memoriam of the EL AL Cargo crew in Amsterdam...
They lost engine nº 3 and 4, and then got LE/TE FLAPS on LH wing... only.
Yet they followed the check-lists to the letter. One check list, then another.
xxx
Happy contrails
Best example is engine fire during takeoff.
While burning, that engine will give you full thrust for the next minute.
Long enough to get you up to a safe altitude.
xxx
When training 747 pilots, I also trained 747 flight engineers.
I often said, IMMEDIATE ACTION starts by sitting on your hands 30 seconds.
The F/E better move his seat 2 feet back and look at the entire panel.
And up-front as well, such as engine instruments.
xxx
Accomplish (PNF or F/E) the IMMEDIATE ACTION as required.
Then go to the book. And proceed slowly with REFERENCE ACTIONS.
Understand the problem before moving any switches or handles.
Especially moving from one reference paragraph to another one.
Or going from one malfunction to another.
One check list followed by another might make problems WORSE.
xxx
In 747s, check-lists that include FLAPS and FLIGHT CONTROLS can be killers.
In memoriam of the EL AL Cargo crew in Amsterdam...
They lost engine nº 3 and 4, and then got LE/TE FLAPS on LH wing... only.
Yet they followed the check-lists to the letter. One check list, then another.
xxx
Happy contrails
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 3,985
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From: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
C-P
Funny story and I started laughing shortly into the first sentence. Which brings up a funny story. In Braniff's 72 ground school in about '78. instructor tells story about a Captain in recurrent who asks, "we got a fire bell at top of climb, but no fire indications." Instructor, silently noting giggling F/Es in the back row, tells Captain, "I cannot imagine what happened as the APU cannot be running in-flight." Captain swears it happened and, then notes laughter from the back row. He's been had!!
Hard to get good help at the Marshall's Service?
GF
Funny story and I started laughing shortly into the first sentence. Which brings up a funny story. In Braniff's 72 ground school in about '78. instructor tells story about a Captain in recurrent who asks, "we got a fire bell at top of climb, but no fire indications." Instructor, silently noting giggling F/Es in the back row, tells Captain, "I cannot imagine what happened as the APU cannot be running in-flight." Captain swears it happened and, then notes laughter from the back row. He's been had!!
Hard to get good help at the Marshall's Service?
GF
Psychophysiological entity
Joined: Jun 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,383
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From: Walton on the Naze Essex.
IE: Take your time and evaluate, in these scenarios.
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 3,985
Likes: 568
From: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Well, I was taught, if accidently in an F-100 spin.
Look at watch, note time for accident board
Place and hold right hand on PITOT HT switch to ensure accurate IAS readings if out of spin
Place and hold left hand on TRIM FOR T/O button to ensure...ta da...trim for T/O
Wait and watch altimeter for 15,000 feet, if still spinning-EJECT.
IOW, do nothing to prevent the plane from recovering itself.
GF
Look at watch, note time for accident board
Place and hold right hand on PITOT HT switch to ensure accurate IAS readings if out of spin
Place and hold left hand on TRIM FOR T/O button to ensure...ta da...trim for T/O
Wait and watch altimeter for 15,000 feet, if still spinning-EJECT.
IOW, do nothing to prevent the plane from recovering itself.
GF
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
What I want to know, is ow can you 'Take your time and evaluate' when you're reading the newspaper?
BTW, Ronny Barker...one of my favorites.
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,166
Likes: 86
From: Planet Earth
Stranger things HAVE happened, about 20 years ago while serving my time as a new hire 727 S/O while we were cruising in level flight out of the corner of my eye I spotted the EGT on the APU control panel start to rise, sure enough it was starting by itself !
I relayed the information to an incredulous Captain who confirmed it was running then shut it down (with the regular on / off switch)
I was there and saw it happen.
You never know
I relayed the information to an incredulous Captain who confirmed it was running then shut it down (with the regular on / off switch)
I was there and saw it happen.
You never know
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
From: Earth
About that APU fire story:
To the "older" guys (I don't consider myself old yet, although some disagree 
):
You've had the APU fire warning while in cruise, then pulled the fire handle and all warnings went away. Why would you want to continue to a distant destination when there's suitable airport nearby at that point I wonder?
How do you know for sure that it was a false warning, or that the real fire is really out. Even if the extinguisher worked as designed, how do you assess the possible fire damage to the area? If you're on an airbus, with electrics controlling all your flight controls, how can you assess that all that wiring going to the tail is still intact? Sure there's a firewall of some kind ahead of the APU, but I wouln't want to bet my safety on it.
the FE to pull the APU fire handle and see if the light goes out. He did, it did and we carried on
):You've had the APU fire warning while in cruise, then pulled the fire handle and all warnings went away. Why would you want to continue to a distant destination when there's suitable airport nearby at that point I wonder?
How do you know for sure that it was a false warning, or that the real fire is really out. Even if the extinguisher worked as designed, how do you assess the possible fire damage to the area? If you're on an airbus, with electrics controlling all your flight controls, how can you assess that all that wiring going to the tail is still intact? Sure there's a firewall of some kind ahead of the APU, but I wouln't want to bet my safety on it.
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 221
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From: n/a
What I want to know, is ow can you 'Take your time and evaluate' when you're reading the newspaper?
Older more experienced folks have no particular problems in this area..
Older more experienced folks have no particular problems in this area..
Sit there for too long reading the newspaper - you might end up with hemorrhoids....
Aviator Extraordinaire
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,396
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From: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Okay, I'm a little confused here by some responses. Are you saying that the APU on the 727 cannot run in flight if the FE forgets to shut it down prior to takeoff?
I have had it happen to me twice, once I caught it right after takeoff and the second time was the story I related. If I recall correctly a American Airlines 727 crashed shortly after takeoff on night, west bound out of LAX, when the FE left the APU running and essential power on the APU and when he realized what he had done he shut down the APU with the Fire Shut off switch causing the loss of all flight instruments.
Now, to answer this question.
Now this just in the case of the 727. The APU sits in the main gear well, actually between the main gear. In that area there is a fire detection system for the APU and a separate system for both gear wells. The wheel well fire detection is not separate, one system for both wells. When the APU fire handle is pulled the container that the APU is in is sealed off from the wheel well area. When the FE pulled the fire handle the light went out immediately. The wheel well fire lights never illuminated, we did not fire the extinguisher as we had a positive proof of what had caused the fire warning to go off. In truth the fire detection system in the 727 is more of an 'overheat' system as opposed to an actual fire detection system.
In the situation I described in my previous post if we had both an APU and Wheel Well fire indication and if either light had not gone out the second the fire handle was pulled I would have reacted differently.
Actually we had some really good pilots there, but sometimes a few slip through the crack. In defense of the two guys with me that day, they were new to the system and both became very competent pilots that I later enjoyed flying with.
Oh, by the way, it is Marshal, with one 'L'.
I have had it happen to me twice, once I caught it right after takeoff and the second time was the story I related. If I recall correctly a American Airlines 727 crashed shortly after takeoff on night, west bound out of LAX, when the FE left the APU running and essential power on the APU and when he realized what he had done he shut down the APU with the Fire Shut off switch causing the loss of all flight instruments.
Now, to answer this question.
You've had the APU fire warning while in cruise, then pulled the fire handle and all warnings went away. Why would you want to continue to a distant destination when there's suitable airport nearby at that point I wonder?
How do you know for sure that it was a false warning, or that the real fire is really out.
How do you know for sure that it was a false warning, or that the real fire is really out.
In the situation I described in my previous post if we had both an APU and Wheel Well fire indication and if either light had not gone out the second the fire handle was pulled I would have reacted differently.
Hard to get good help at the Marshall's Service?
Oh, by the way, it is Marshal, with one 'L'.
Last edited by con-pilot; 4th February 2009 at 16:54.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
If I recall correctly a American Airlines 727 crashed shortly after takeoff on night, west bound out of LAX, when the FE left the APU running and essential power on the APU and when he realized what he had done he shut down the APU with the Fire Shut off switch causing the loss of all flight instruments.
I know because I helped look for/find the wreckage.
Not a happy night...
Be aware...in too big a hurry sometimes makes the problem/situation worse, and results in bypassing the hospital altogether, and proceeding directly to the cemetary.
As in...dead as a doornail.